NAMM NEWS - DP 10 - It's Here!

[MIDI Life Crisis]

...MLC, it's entirely understandable that you hate on full ranges of modern music

OK, you went there. Ad hominem attacks will not be tolerated. Once you apologize for that we might be able to chat further. Otherwise, I have nothing to contribute to this thread. Bye for now!

[FMiguelez]

If anything, this new "Loop tool" will surely satisfy users who work on other varied genres where loops are not only used but are required and ARE PART of the style/sound.
There are many techniques to avoid loop monotony, and it can also be used very creatively with lots of fun (loop-mangling, sound design, crazy automation, etc).

IOW, that which MLC doesn't like (cloned repetitions) ARE part of many electronic genres. And that, I agree, where human performers are involved, loops do sound lazy and plain bad and not very musical. They just don't sound like a good authentic "human" performance (presuming that's what you're after). So it all depends on the genre/style, does it not?

The bright side for MOTU is that this feature will attract a lot of the crowd that, perhaps correctly, felt left behind with earlier DP versions due to lack of such facilities.
At least it won't hurt DP's popularity and it might increase in other circles.
MOTU widened the target of the app without fastidiating other long-time users who won't use the feature.

I think it was a very smart move on their part.

[cuttime]

A dirty little secret: Looping has been available in DP all along. I've even used it myself. I must face I don't use it on Chopin or Wagner though.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

...MLC, it's entirely understandable that you hate on full ranges of modern music

IOW, that which MLC doesn't like (cloned repetitions) ARE part of many electronic genres.

Please don't characterize what I like and what I don't like. I'm a big boy, I can speak for myself, and both these comments are grossly inaccurate.

As far as the jabs at my "snooty classical sensibility" please know that I am neither a conservatory nor a university trained musician (I only taught at a university. lol) My roots are as a rock drummer and guitarist. Again, please don't assume that I don't know about popular genres just because I don't embrace them in my own work.

I went out of my way to be nice in responding to this subject. Apparently, that's just not good enough for some folks. I see that as their problem, not mine.

[FMiguelez]

Please don't characterize what I like and what I don't like. I'm a big boy, I can speak for myself, and both these comments are grossly inaccurate.

As far as the jabs at my "snooty classical sensibility" please know that I am neither a conservatory nor a university trained musician (I only taught at a university. lol) My roots are as a rock drummer and guitarist. Again, please don't assume that I don't know about popular genres just because I don't embrace them in my own work.

I went out of my way to be nice in responding to this subject. Apparently, that's just not good enough for some folks. I see that as their problem, not mine.

Mike, from my part, I'm quite surprised you tell me that...

To which jabs are you referring to?

It's as if you suddenly switched the goal-post or confuse me with someone else and completely misunderstood what I meant.

I thought it was quite obvious I was making a point and directly referring to things you've been saying like this:

... but does he loop the expression of those rhythms identically every time. Only a discerning ear can tell, and therein lies the rub. "Real live musicians" playing live on an instrument don't play loops. They may play repeats, but that is not the same thing.

However hard you try, you simply cannot take the art of creating music and dumb it down to fit the technology available to you as the thing that music is. Again, if you can make a living making and/or using loops, great. But that is very different from actually performing music.

You've said multiple times you don't like loops nor working with them. But then it seems you connected my commentary of you not liking them to my next sentence about many electronic styles requiring loops, as if I were dissing you or implying you're not qualified to talk about this, or something... No! Not at all. At least I didn't.
On the contrary. I was even agreeing with you about your human performance comments.

That's why I even bolded my main point in the paragraph...

IOW, that which MLC doesn't like (cloned repetitions) ARE part of many electronic genres. And that, I agree, where human performers are involved, loops do sound lazy and plain bad and not very musical. They just don't sound like a good authentic "human" performance (presuming that's what you're after). So it all depends on the genre/style, does it not?

...which, in the context of your previous commentary, it just means that their "correct" usage and their effectiveness in the music is mostly genre-dependent. That's all. Nothing about me "characterizing you" in any way...

It actually seemed to me you were sort of dissing loop-usage a little, in an extremely broad context, thus my (perhaps poorly-written) answer.

But in no way did I mean to disrespect you, so I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. Come on, Mike. You know how much I admire you!

Please notice I never even said anything about your electronic capabilities or your "classical sensitivities" or training. Are you sure you meant to refer to me there in that answer?

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Maybe I'm being overly sensitive today. It's possible. I'm in scoring hell at the moment. I guess I don't like being discussed in the third person when I'm in a discussion. I'm not dead yet, but I'm getting there... lol

[dix]

Can Clips be in surround I wonder? The only time I’ve ever used Live, apart from sound-mangling, was to accompany live dance performances installations - triggering scenes to keep the score precisely in sync with the performance. The only limitations were that the score needed to be stereo (at the time. Live may be able to this now) Being able to trigger surround clips would be very cool.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Can Clips be in surround I wonder? The only time I’ve ever used Live, apart from sound-mangling, was to accompany live dance performances installations - triggering scenes to keep the score precisely in sync with the performance. The only limitations were that the score needed to be stereo (at the time. Live may be able to this now) Being able to trigger surround clips would be very cool.

I can see this being a big time saver in theater tech rehearsals as well.

[Michael Canavan]

...MLC, it's entirely understandable that you hate on full ranges of modern music

OK, you went there. Ad hominem attacks will not be tolerated. Once you apologize for that we might be able to chat further. Otherwise, I have nothing to contribute to this thread. Bye for now!

There are full ranges of modern music that use loops, samples of other music etc.
I apologize if I'm wrong here, but everything you've ever said has led me to the conclusion that music made by sampling bits of records, using loops from Garage Band or some company like Splice, or any number of other loop outfits out there, and I would guess the loop content that DP 10 will come with is not for you. You call arpeggiators cheating in this thread even. Hate might be too strong of a word here, but you definitely let it be known you find that music lifeless. There's nothing wrong with that.

I already said I don't think that's a bad thing. I believe in order to be a musician with any amount of focus, to get a sound that's yours you need to discriminate and cut the deadwood. You have a style from what I can tell of the dozen or so tracks you put out there, and it's great.

I even agree with you to a degree, not about arpeggiators but I'm not much of a fan of songs that use factory loops from Garageband and the like, although I think it's entirely possible to mangle them into something interesting if you have the computer skills and feel like going that way. I even got paid once to take someone's song made with Garageband loops and add in different instruments to make it less sterile and obvious. Odd job that was.

Unlike you I only supplement my income with music though, and my day job has almost killed my abilities to do music more than once unfortunately. Over the years I've broken two fingers, my wrist, and cut two tendons in my hands. Plus another torn basketball mallet wound on my right index finger.
The last one was the left thumb tendon cut, out for four months.... My point with this sob story is I feel really lucky to live in a time when if all else failed, I could construct songs with step recording, and loops.

It's very possible Clips opens up DP to a whole new audience.
I just hope we're all not too rough on the kids that come here who do EDM and other music like that, that's all. I was not trying to offend you or pigeon hole you etc.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

...I'm not much of a fan of songs that use factory loops from Garageband and the like...

Thanks, man. Let's NOT kiss and make up... lol... but as far as that quote above...

I play a gig for an underground comedy show almost every Saturday night at midnight (about 2 blocks from MacArthur Park in LA). I'll be there tonight, in fact. Anyway... there's at least one performer who puts together her music (usually funny songs with dances and other mischief) and she uses GarageBand exclusively. I've heard her stuff over a decade and always thought it was really well produced. Pretty complex structures but all based on loops. Not even solo lines. Just loops, and it's great.

But from my perspective as a composer, having used loops before, I have decided that as an esthetic, making good music in any genre, using loops or pre-recorded anything (sans SFX, etc) is a dead end artistically. Why? Because it forces the structure on the creator. And sure, it can be creative to work in that kind of a box, but it limits the imagination of the creator. That, is a dead end, IMO.

I'm sorry if I got overly passionate about that position. I'm Italian. I get overly passionate about cheesecake! lol Don't even get me started on coffee!!

So let's continue being friends and agree to disagree. Do a doobie and have done with this. lol

[Michael Canavan]

...I'm not much of a fan of songs that use factory loops from Garageband and the like...

Thanks, man. Let's NOT kiss and make up... lol... but as far as that quote above...

I play a gig for an underground comedy show almost every Saturday night at midnight (about 2 blocks from MacArthur Park in LA). I'll be there tonight, in fact. Anyway... there's at least one performer who puts together her music (usually funny songs with dances and other mischief) and she uses GarageBand exclusively. I've heard her stuff over a decade and always thought it was really well produced. Pretty complex structures but all based on loops. Not even solo lines. Just loops, and it's great.

But from my perspective as a composer, having used loops before, I have decided that as an esthetic, making good music in any genre, using loops or pre-recorded anything (sans SFX, etc) is a dead end artistically. Why? Because it forces the structure on the creator. And sure, it can be creative to work in that kind of a box, but it limits the imagination of the creator. That, is a dead end, IMO.

I'm sorry if I got overly passionate about that position. I'm Italian. I get overly passionate about cheesecake! lol Don't even get me started on coffee!!

So let's continue being friends and agree to disagree. Do a doobie and have done with this. lol

word!

For my aesthetic, I can't use drum loops, just can't really do it, it feels wrong. I'm not a good drummer at all, I'm pretty good with drum machines though, so I use those mostly. The only time I've used a loop of any music in my work it was from some 1950's sci fi, as much about the thin TV static sound on the orchestra hit as it was about the actual hit.

I've got Push 2 and it's a 64 pad device that acts like a synth among other things, and I'm deathly morally opposed to this one feature it has, where it puts you in key, so every note on it is in F minor for instance. I've got very little that I can rest on laurels wise as a musician except for the fact that a good amount of the time I'm playing in some strange key, and in some odd time signature. Things that limit people from doing that irk me.

I mean I get it. It takes a lot of time to be fluent at an instrument, and people are trying to learn it all now, but I just hate that it (the tools) limits what people are willing to attempt. The upside is that's them, not me, and they probably hear something I did in 9/8 with buzzsaw guitar strumming and might be bleeding from the ears! but at least there's not much competition for new wave death metal electro prog!!

[Phil O]

For a long time, I have not used the built in click function in DP. When a click is required, I find that most musicians perform better if I create a custom drum or percussion track related to the song. (Whether or not a click is a good thing is a discussion for another day). Anywho, I usually use the Drum Editor to create a one or two measure loop (oh no - he used the "L" word ) and let it run. So yeah, I use loops - sort of.

Phil

[Phil O]

Maybe I'm being overly sensitive today. It's possible. I'm in scoring hell at the moment

Hope today is better, my friend. Even if you're not a sports fan, I heard there's a game today. Roll up a fat one, sit back and root for your favorite team.

BOSTON!!!

[MIDI Life Crisis]

I don’t watch sports. I hate them more than I hate loops. Lol well, almost as much.

[Phil O]

Yeah, I hear you. I usually don't watch sports either, but my band mates will be talking non-stop about the game at our next job, so I figure I need to (at the very least) know who won. And it's a great excuse to roll a fatty.

Phil