Help me learn to use DPs grid... PLEASE!

[James Steele]

Vertical zoom is useful for people with bad eyesight or large monitors. I use it now because I have a 30" monitor and it just helps me see things better. Ridiculed?? Were they? I'll have to find it. Seems sooner or later, everyone gets to be the victim.

One of the things that does seem discouraging is that some people, as I've said so many times before, have tunnel vision. It honestly does not matter just HOW GREAT a new version of DP is, within hours those folks will be on this board, harping on ONE FEATURE on their personal list that didn't make it. And how DP just isn't there yet, blah, blah, blah.

I don't know how many of these people have ever posted a helpful tip or shared information on how to accomplish something musical with Digital Performer (flawed as it is), but I imagine it's very small. And this incessant eternal grousing has MADE ME BEGIN TO HATE COMING TO MY OWN SITE to the point that I tried to segregate these posts into the Troubleshooting section.

For some reason I just had a mental picture of a large shiny 6 foot tall software box of DP 7.2 being lowered down into a clearing in a woods with a loud thud. Debut day! The new version! The forest goes silent... then a faint chatter starts up... as dozens of little squirrels all scurry out into the open and begin gnawing at the corners of the box and scratching and peeling the outside.

Bad press? Ha! Since when has any music magazine been even near as critical of a DAW as that DAW's own online user community? If you try to accentuate the positive, and don't just stand on the sidelines and let threads ruminate for pages upon pages on some aspect of DP that is perceived by SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE as inadequate, you're a fanboy!

It's sad that the good vibes that come with such an outstanding release as 7.2 last only for hours, or maybe a day or two before it's business as usual.

[Shooshie]

We get a lot of trolling in here from users of other DAWs who hope to demoralize our users.

Seriously?!? You think there’s a vast conspiracy of Logic trying to bring you down?
That’s the kind of thinking that would never occur to me.

bb

Hmm… I don't recall using those words "vast conspiracy." Might you be exaggerating for some personal reason?

Anyway, during the times when it's been at its worst, I've really wondered. I can't see any reason to say many of the things that have been said. Maybe you don't remember, but we've had people proclaiming loudly that DP doesn't do half the things that it DOES do, or describing how other DAWs (not just Logic) do it so much better that DP ought to just give up. Usually with 1 or 2 posts to their names. What would you suppose is their motivation? Not exactly a bouquet of roses, dude.

After 6.0 was released, things got pretty bad here. I agreed with some of the criticism at the time, but not the way it was delivered. Now, with Themes (thanks, Andy), I've adapted to 95% of the changes. But what we got here was wayyy more than about the changes to DP 6. What do you suppose brings on such rabid remarks?

One doesn't help improve anything when making people ashamed to say they use it, giving the impression that it's tottering on its last legs while the new, bright solution lies elsewhere. When James kicks out those making the most noise with the least likelihood of being actual paid-up users of DP, this place runs a lot more smoothly. James is the only one who can pull the plug on someone, but we all help identify trolls and pirates.

Now, Bongo, might I ask you to reread what I wrote earlier without the personal filter that made you take this in a different, more personal direction? Note the lines where I mentioned the difference between not wanting new features vs. stopping criticism that doesn't match the facts, ie, "DP can't automatically rewind to where playback started." (it can) Just an example of thousands of such misguided accusations which could have been phrased as a question, but the user had an axe to grind and preferred poison instead.

You tell ME what motivates trolls, ok? (and leave out the vast f-cking conspiracies, if you will)

Shoosh

[wvandyck]

Having been a somewhat active member years ago; and putting considerable effort into the Evolution of DP pdf a while ago, I am not a troll!!!

My point was that, discussion of what could be, seems to be needlessly interpreted as criticism. DP's feature set will only increase in time. So why not discuss things that could be improved or added???

DP 7.2 is better than v6 which was better than previous versions.

Anyone who uses additional DAW and spends time at their respective forums will tell you that all of them have similar concerns with needed improvements and feature requests inspired by other DAW such as DP.

[bongo_x]

I apologize Shooshie, I should have realized my comments may have read more seriously than I meant them.

I don’t think anyone comes here to try and spoil others opinions of DP though. I think they’re irritated, sometimes rude, and lacking some knowledge.

I guess I have a hard time taking it that seriously when someone shows up and starts ranting.

bb

[Shooshie]

Having been a somewhat active member years ago; and putting considerable effort into the Evolution of DP pdf a while ago, I am not a troll!!!

Of COURSE you're not! I hope that's not what it sounded like I was implying. I was needlessly explaining the difference between not wanting any more features, vs. trying to prevent some people from starting rumors that DP is handicapped, deficient, or any of the other misguided statements that sometimes appear here. (and you'd be surprised how many of those rumors persist here among people who should know better) That led to explaining the risks in responding to such people: are they innocently misinformed? Or are they trolls? It was a series of associations by comparison. You are completely removed from such activity. Really, all would have been well if I'd just kept my thoughts to myself.

Everything is under control, Grommit!

Shooshie

[Shooshie]

I guess I have a hard time taking it that seriously when someone shows up and starts ranting.

And I probably shouldn't either. But as I said in the previous post, a lot of needless rumors persist over time, and when they do, people outside the forum gradually pick up on them, too, so DP gets a reputation that it doesn't deserve. If someone doesn't make an effort to change them, it will just go on and on. Does it matter? It matters to me, because I've used this software so long, and I've had to fight those rumors in a lot of studios. By that, I mean I've endured some pretty powerful people in this industry (including names like Geffen) telling my producer that they need to find someone who will use the industry standard, Pro Tools, and I've had to fight to keep my jobs. (Logic wasn't even on the radar back then) I did so by way of demonstration. I can tell you this: I've never worked in a studio that someone hasn't said that watching me work they've become convinced that DP is one of the best DAWs out there. Is that important? If it helps keep MOTU in business it is. If not, then heck… I might as well shut up then!

Shoosh

[wvandyck]

That led to explaining the risks in responding to such people: are they innocently misinformed? Or are they trolls? It was a series of associations by comparison.
Everything is under control, Grommit!

Shooshie

I completely understand the risks involved in responding to someone when their intentions are not known. Help or suggestions are offered only to realize that the person has another agenda.

Your story about fighting to use DP on the job sheds much light on how biases can promote perceptions.... accurate or not. Shooshie tales of DP are part of the mythology that inspires us all.

But speaking as one who does use other DAW, all of them have significant deficiencies in various areas. There is no perfect DAW. But it does seem to be a bit of an arms race between DAW. Getting back to the initial posters concern about the grid, my 5¢ worth of commentary was to suggest the benefits of open discussion of areas that can lead to an even more dynamic DP to meet the varying needs of users. I apologize for any misunderstanding as my comments were not criticism but focused on an optimal evolution.

Cheers to the latest and greatest DP 7.2

[James Steele]

I think what Shooshie and I are maybe trying to get across is that its probably a good idea for those of us who are longtime DP users and wish to see DP thrive, to be on point and objective with our criticism and not succumb to frustrated venting.

Shooshie, I and others often do join threads and sometimes attempt to answer assertions about DP if they are either incorrect or exaggerated. I can't speak for Shooshie, but I'll tell you why *I* do it. It's because this board is indexed by search engines and if incorrect or incomplete information is not responded to, people who are considering using DP will draw conclusions about DP without all the facts. I don't want to add to the disinformation that's already out there.

I just came from a thread over at Gearslutz where DP was being discussed and some of the usual sniping from the gallery was going on. Comments like: "They still make DP? I thought they had lost the Daw Wars years ago." The poster of course knows "they still make DP"-- he's just doing his part to try and destroy the reputation of a DAW he doesn't like. I can't quite figure out why so many revel in bashing DP, but they do.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that we're a community of Digital Performer users. We criticize DP amongst ourselves because we want to see it improve. I'm just suggesting that we avoid hyperbole or rants because they are taken out of context and used as ammunition by the people who trash DP at every opportunity.

It's disappointing for me to sometimes see people cite what they read at motunation as the reason the didn't upgrade, etc. It shouldn't be that way. DP 7.2 is an outstanding version and getting here involved some growing pains.

[benmrx]

I'm sorry I posted here while frustrated. I think this thread has got a wee bit of hand.

[pacoalbisua]

No absolute grid is a MAJOR problem. How the MOTU crew haven't realized this is beyond me. Makes editing a pain in the ass.

[Shooshie]

No absolute grid is a MAJOR problem. How the MOTU crew haven't realized this is beyond me. Makes editing a pain in the ass.

Editing in DP isn't a problem at all, but dealing with the many people who do not understand its grid system can definitely be a major pain in the ass. For this reason, I've begun asking MOTU to add some key command which acts as an instant snap for a selection acting as a region -- snapping the entire selection/region to a gridline. So many people have asked for it, and there has been so much energy expended on trying to explain how to work with what is already there, that I've taken to asking for the feature to be added for those who prefer to work that way. I'd find it useful, too, though I really don't have trouble with things as they are. If you were to go back and read this entire thread, I think you might learn something about the way DP works currently.

Shooshie

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Ya think?

[Guitar Gaz]

Having switched from Opcode Vision I got used to moving MIDI notes around in a certain way - it still frustrates me but I guess I am kind of used to it now.

The sort of thing I liked to do in Vision was take a certain start point for copying a range of MIDI notes - lets say 3.1.000 with the notes occurring at many different points during this section - and then say setting the insert point to 7.1.000 and presto the notes would all be in the same postion. So a note starting at 3.1.239 would now show up as copied to 7.1.239. That seems not too much to ask for.

But in DP you set the insert point to 7.1.000 (easy to do if the grid snap is on) and presto - DP inserts the note at 7.1.000. Not really very useful to me. You of course have to set the insert point to 7.1.239 for it to work properly - not a big deal some would say, but more fiddly and not intuitive (you have to know the start point of the first note). So its frustrating if you are used to one way of working and re-using the relative timing of some MIDI sections elsewhere. I daresay there is a good reason for DP working this way but I can't think of one myself.

Perhaps someone can tell me I have been doing it wrong all these years ! I love DP now - but this is the frustration with it that I have and it makes it less easy for some tasks than others.

[Shooshie]

Well, if I wanted to accomplish what you just said, GG, I'd do it in the Tracks Overview Window. Range-Select the bars at 3.1.000, Option-drag to 7.1.000, and it's done. Having used DP since the beginning, things like that are second nature, but I certainly understand the frustration of coming from another app. Over the years, many of my favorite apps for the Mac have simply disappeared, forcing me to move to the dominant competitor, and in some cases it really destroyed the vibe of using that type of software.

I've gradually come to realize that most people who switched to DP at some point after mastering another DAW never really learn to use the Tracks Overview Window. At one point, there was no MIDI Edit Window, and no Sequence Editor (back in the early Performer days). The Tracks Overview WAS our graphic editor then. You couldn't even tell what was in it; only that something was there, because the bars would have blocks of color indicating that they contained a few notes, several notes, or a lot of notes (or none).

The Event List being the main window for detailed work, the Tracks Overview was wonderful since it allowed us to use the power of computers to move things around quickly and intuitively. As other windows grew to become the dominant working environments, the Tracks Overview's distinctive capabilities have never been duplicated elsewhere, but many consider it mainly a passive display, not realizing that those who use it accomplish much more with it than is evident.

Those colored blocks taught us to look at the Tracks Overview a certain way, which empowers us to this day. You could see the patterns of what was there, just out of sight, and those patterns informed your selection criteria and movement of data. Now, with the semi-visible contents of the bars (as opposed to colored blocks), people find it frustrating and neglect to learn them as blocks of data. Setting the selection criteria to Range Only, the Tracks Overview functions pretty much as it always did. With Range and Events selected, it is more powerful, but requires a little more technique to use it effectively.

I can only assume that you do not use it often, or the above example would have immediately defaulted to the TOW. By zooming in or out, it becomes capable of other things, like rearranging individual notes or rhythmic figures without losing their groove, just by quickly grabbing and dragging. There is much you can do with Shift, Clip, Insert, Drag, Merge, Copy/Paste, etc., but if it gets too complex, you can move to the Song Window. Once upon a time this was a viable option, too. Now the TOW is capable of what the Song Window used to do, so I just stay there.

I do not mean to imply that the Tracks Overview is better than or able to replace completely what you lost in the move from Vision, but at least in the example you cited, it is wonderful. I think immigrants from other DAWs never quite feel fully assimilated. I know I would curse any DAW to which I had to move if I lost DP. There's not one out there which has its capabilities, and my unique abilities are unique mainly because I learned them in DP; trying to move them to Logic proved a frustrating mess. I finally had to conclude that A) Logic does not do these things, and B) the people who use it do not know that, because A) it does not do those things. Tell them what you want to do, and they think of 15 other things that are not what you want to do. After a couple of years of studying the manual, studying the menus, windows, and seeking advice from numerous heavy Logic users, I concluded that it literally A) does not do those things.

I'm sure that your experience in DP somewhat reflects mine in Logic. But DP has amazing strengths. I hope at least some of them have found their ways into your workflows, and that you at least feel some compensation for the loss of Vision -- a blow to all of us, and one that we all grieved over when it happened. How could one of the big two suddenly just go "poof" and vanish? (rhetorical question; I know the answer)

Shooshie

[Guitar Gaz]

Thanks Shooshie - you are right of course - and I have used the Tracks Overview in this way - I think the way of working with a sequencer (as we used to call them) becomes ingrained - its taken a while to get Vision out of my system. And as I say you get used to the differences - but when you get tired you revert back to learnt behaviour - and sometimes I try to do the example I gave in the Graphic Editor window. I don't do this type of editing in DP enough to make me forget the ingrained method. But I love DP now - Vision was my first love and she broke my heart - but I married DP and sometimes in weak moments I look back. You have reminded me of the Tracks Overview method - thanks for that - you usually come up with the answers !