Help me learn to use DPs grid... PLEASE!

[benmrx]

OK... you all know I wish DP had an absolute grid... I accept that (at least for the time being), it doesn't. However, I'm honestly having a hell-of-a-time trying to pencil in some music. Here's my dilemma. I basically have to hold down the 'command' key for every single move so the notes are not locked to the relative grid... because they simply don't end up where I want them to 90% of the time... because I want them to be on the absolute grid... I can't just turn the grid off, because then the grid lines go away and I have no reference. The only time it works is if I pencil in a note while the grid is set to 1/8th notes... and then I NEVER copy or move that note outside of other 1/8th note positions.. or at least other positions smaller than 1/8th notes (I.E., dotted, 16ths, etc.). I've tried using the quantize window, but I end up having to go in and constantly change the settings so that one or two notes end up in the right place... then make a new selection of a few notes... change the quantize settings...etc.

If someone.... anyone has the time to upload a short video tutorial showing how you personally draw in notes (doing something more than a basic series of quarter notes) I'de love to see your method, because the way I've taught myself how to do it over the years simply doesn't work in DP. Even if there was an option to keep the grid lines on, but not have the grid 'active', I'de be in alot better shape. My thumb just has to be locked on that 'command' key... which makes other commands and editing a little awkward.

It just took me probably 15 minutes to make a somewhat interesting measure of 7th chords doing a basic I-II-V-I progression, where as it would usually take me 2 minutes at the most.

[James Steele]

What kind of mouse or trackball do you have? I have a three button mouse, but the middle button is hard to get to by design. I used to have the right button set to "Command+Click" so that I could drag note durations in the MIDI editor without being constrained to the grid. When DP 7.2 added contextual menus, I sort of had to give that up, which kind of sucked, because I needed the right button for the "right-click" for contextual menus.

Point I'm getting at is if your mouse/trackball software lets you... at least temporarily map one of the buttons to Command+Click while you're doing that and it might be a little easier.

Any way, you have some good suggestions. The resolution of the time grid display should be independent of whether whether notes are snapping to it. Seems duration is quantized automatically too upon input with the pencil tool. It might be nice to have only attacks snap to grid and be able to draw durations without quantization. You can do this though by having the grid on, then clicking where the note should be (thus quantizing the attack), then without letting up on the mouse button, press the Command key and then drag your desired duration.

But yes... room for improvement. I'm not a big "note-drawer" as you can tell, so this sort of thing wouldn't bother me so much.

[benmrx]

Well... thanks to USB Overdrive, I just went ahead and made my right-click button be a regular left click + command. So that should definately help. My mouse has a couple other buttons I can use if I want to set up the contextual menus.

I know my post here was a slight vent,... but I truely am curious how the note drawers out there use DP. I honestly had no idea how much this one feature would hold me back. It's truely the one and only thing that's keeping me from making a smooth transition into DP. I just tried it again.. made a quick 4 bar progression in Logic, then in DP.... I just have to get used to it... because even though I LOVE Logics grid feature I simply can't deal with the other 95% of the program...

[James Steele]

Well... thanks to USB Overdrive, I just went ahead and made my right-click button be a regular left click + command. So that should definately help. My mouse has a couple other buttons I can use if I want to set up the contextual menus.

That's what I used to do. I switched Logitech Control Center because of issues with the Contextual Menus. As long as you can assign a true "Right Click" to another button you'll be fine, because the kicker is that at least for my mouse, I can't use left click plus another other modifier key to make it work AFAIK. I don't think you can use a modifier key to turn a left click into a right click which is what I'd need.

I know my post here was a slight vent,... but I truely am curious how the note drawers out there use DP. I honestly had no idea how much this one feature would hold me back. It's truely the one and only thing that's keeping me from making a smooth transition into DP. I just tried it again.. made a quick 4 bar progression in Logic, then in DP.... I just have to get used to it... because even though I LOVE Logics grid feature I simply can't deal with the other 95% of the program...

Look at the name of the app... "Performer" then later "Digital Performer." The roots of the app go back to a time when music was "performed"... not "drawn." You probably are working in a manner that isn't quite as common for most users. As I said... tough for any one app to be all things to all users. Seems like some tweaks to how the pencil tool works as that would be good. Also, when you're using the pencil tool in the MIDI editor and the grid is on, the grid is absolute as far as creating new notes... not relative. It becomes relative when you attempt to move notes however.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

OK... you all know I wish DP had an absolute grid...

NEVER assume people remember ANYTHING about you or your posts. With 40 gazillion members, that ain't gonna happen. You do get to know some people after a while, especially after a few PMs about specific stuff. No offense, but we all have our own agenda and sometimes think we make a bigger impression that we do. Frankly, I don't remember yo mentioning anything about the grid.

[FMiguelez]

NEVER assume people remember ANYTHING about you... [ ] ...and sometimes think we make a bigger impression that we do.

Yeah, like when I go to the ad agencies to show them my reel. It hasn't been very effective

---

I never "draw" notes either. I just play them. I couldn't do it any other way. But this thing with the grid could be one of those where everyone is happy with. MOTU could certainly add a preference to have the grid behave either way.

Personally, I'd always leave it relative, as it is.

A friend called me to critique a piano piece of his. He didn't play it. He just drew the notes and messed with velocities. The results were very poor and I could clearly hear tons of issues.
I offered him I could PLAY it and record it for him the way a pianist would do it... the rubato, the dynamics, the phrasing, the velocities... those would be a pain to program realistically. And seriously, I doubt it could be done convincingly any other way.

[bkshepard]

I, too, have often wished for the ability to switch the grid from a note-based value to a time/SMPTE/sample based value, but mostly for synch and spotting purposes rather than entering musical notes. Like several others have already said, I usually play my stuff into DP, but realize not everyone does that. When I want to pencil notes in manually, here's how I do it.

1. Turn off the grid
2. The grid lines that run down through the tracks will disappear, BUT if you look up at the top of the window, you will see a time ruler with divisions for measure, large subdivisions for beats, and small subdivisions for 16th notes.
3. No matter where your cursor is in the window, you will see a little line up on that ruler that shows you the exact position in time.
4. Using that line as a reference, position your cursor wherever you want and click and drag to your heart's content.

Hope that helps.

[grouse]

Ok, I'm going to display my ignorance here, but can someone explain what absolute and relative grids mean?
I rarely draw notes but I often "play" beats on my keyboard which is kind of the same thing.
I run into problems when I try to quantize the notes.
For example, if I tap in an 8th note beat and inevitably my timing is off a little, I always have to manually move each note to the lines (I'm talking of course when I want a completely robotic groove).
If I select quantize and there's a note that's just ahead of, say the one, the note often gets "quantized" to a point just before the one.
Is this something to do with the relative grid?
The other places I quantize are Reason and Live and these programs will lock the note to the nearest beat "line".
I've always had these weird results with DP's quantize and I'm wondering is there a preference I'm missing.
I was a bit reluctant to post this becaus I'm out of town and away from my Mac so I can't recreate it at this moment but maybe someone could shed some light on this.

[bkshepard]

can someone explain what absolute and relative grids mean?

Absolute grid is based on time values. some of the common forms are:

Clock Time: seconds, 10ths of seconds, milliseconds, etc.
SMPTE: hours, minutes, seconds, frames, subframes
Samples: 1000 samples, 100 samples, 10 samples, 1 sample

Relative Grid is based on musical, metrical values like measures, beats, and smaller rhythmic values like 8th notes, 16th notes, various flavors of triplets, etc.

A lot of people in the film and video world use absolute values for synchronization purposes while most people in the musical world use relative values. Some DAWs allow you to switch between the various grids, but DPs grid is always based on relative values. You can, however, set the nudge amount to absolute values.

[benmrx]

OK... you all know I wish DP had an absolute grid...

NEVER assume people remember ANYTHING about you or your posts. With 40 gazillion members, that ain't gonna happen. You do get to know some people after a while, especially after a few PMs about specific stuff. No offense, but we all have our own agenda and sometimes think we make a bigger impression that we do. Frankly, I don't remember yo mentioning anything about the grid.

Noted... I just assumed most of the usual posters here would be sick of hearing me talk about relative/absolute grids.

I, too, have often wished for the ability to switch the grid from a note-based value to a time/SMPTE/sample based value, but mostly for synch and spotting purposes rather than entering musical notes. Like several others have already said, I usually play my stuff into DP, but realize not everyone does that. When I want to pencil notes in manually, here's how I do it.

1. Turn off the grid
2. The grid lines that run down through the tracks will disappear, BUT if you look up at the top of the window, you will see a time ruler with divisions for measure, large subdivisions for beats, and small subdivisions for 16th notes.
3. No matter where your cursor is in the window, you will see a little line up on that ruler that shows you the exact position in time.
4. Using that line as a reference, position your cursor wherever you want and click and drag to your heart's content.

Hope that helps.

Nice tip. I'll take a look at that later today, it definately might be helpful. Although simply assigning one of my mouse buttons to be "command - click" works well too.

Ok, I'm going to display my ignorance here, but can someone explain what absolute and relative grids mean?

In DP, when you have a note that is off the grid, and you try and move that note by a quarter note for example, it will stay off the grid, but move exactly the length of one quarter note. In most other applications, it would move the note the nearest quarter note. So... if your note isn't already on the grid, using the grid won't help put it on the grid. You have to use the quantize feature. I know at least in in PT and Logic, there are toggle switches to change the grid from relative to absolute, so you can work either way.

I personally find relative grid very usefull when moving/copying entire phrases, but extremely unuseful when moving around indvididual notes within a phrase.

Well... thanks to USB Overdrive, I just went ahead and made my right-click button be a regular left click + command. So that should definately help. My mouse has a couple other buttons I can use if I want to set up the contextual menus.

That's what I used to do. I switched Logitech Control Center because of issues with the Contextual Menus. As long as you can assign a true "Right Click" to another button you'll be fine, because the kicker is that at least for my mouse, I can't use left click plus another other modifier key to make it work AFAIK. I don't think you can use a modifier key to turn a left click into a right click which is what I'd need.

At least as of v3 of USB Overdrive you can assign any click to be right click... or click + modifier. It's extremely handy... although I do know it has issues with some Logitech devices.... I think you're the one that actually warned me on that one.

I know my post here was a slight vent,... but I truely am curious how the note drawers out there use DP. I honestly had no idea how much this one feature would hold me back. It's truely the one and only thing that's keeping me from making a smooth transition into DP. I just tried it again.. made a quick 4 bar progression in Logic, then in DP.... I just have to get used to it... because even though I LOVE Logics grid feature I simply can't deal with the other 95% of the program...

Look at the name of the app... "Performer" then later "Digital Performer." The roots of the app go back to a time when music was "performed"... not "drawn." You probably are working in a manner that isn't quite as common for most users. As I said... tough for any one app to be all things to all users. Seems like some tweaks to how the pencil tool works as that would be good. Also, when you're using the pencil tool in the MIDI editor and the grid is on, the grid is absolute as far as creating new notes... not relative. It becomes relative when you attempt to move notes however.

never "draw" notes either. I just play them. I couldn't do it any other way. But this thing with the grid could be one of those where everyone is happy with. MOTU could certainly add a preference to have the grid behave either way.

Personally, I'd always leave it relative, as it is.

A friend called me to critique a piano piece of his. He didn't play it. He just drew the notes and messed with velocities. The results were very poor and I could clearly hear tons of issues.
I offered him I could PLAY it and record it for him the way a pianist would do it... the rubato, the dynamics, the phrasing, the velocities... those would be a pain to program realistically. And seriously, I doubt it could be done convincingly any other way.

Oh yeah.... trust me.. I have no illusion that me drawing in notes would sound even remotely as real and authentic as someone that can actually play a keyboard... especially for piano type parts. However, sometimes I'm just sketching out an idea so that I can have a real piano player do the part. At least with the guy I usually work with, the process goes alot smoother if I can play him a rough sketch of what I want.

However, when writing certain string parts, even horn parts, pads, drums, etc. I can usually do a pretty good job with the pencil tool.

[Shooshie]

Quite honestly, I cannot comprehend your problem. We've been through the options. It's just not that hard to do! Maybe you should familiarize yourself with Input Quantize, or learn the routine for Record Beats (not to be confused with tap tempo). It is found at Project/Modify Conductor Track/Record Beats. Also in the same place you will find Adjust Beats. These help you to get the "grid" perfectly aligned with your music, so that all future notes you draw in will be right in time with the existing notes.

But just seeing where you are? Just locating your hand/trackball/note with the timeline? When you start to draw in a note, or move a note, watch your cursor location in the timeline, directly above where you are clicking. If you click on a note, you will see little lines that represent the beginning and end of the selections, as well as your cursor. That gives you the perfect ability to nail the location of the note anywhere you want it. It gets to be 2nd nature, I guess, because I cannot remember EVER having the troubles you're describing, and quite frankly, I think the continual references to it in this forum are beginning to be more than a minor annoyance.

There is nothing wrong with the way we do things, my friend. You can do them this way or not, but I wish you wouldn't keep alluding to this as a problem, whether directly stated or not. Also, the implications that Logic does it the right way, but not DP, are a little insulting. We were doing this the "right way" before Logic was much more than a flowchart in its developer's Deutsch mind. I couldn't possibly count the number of notes I've entered and centered exactly where I want them. You can zoom to any level if the precision of your mouse hand is shaky. (I recommend a trackball for this -- specifically a Kensington Turbo Mouse Pro) But I used mice in many studios that didn't have trackballs, and it was never a problem. Or, you can use the Shift command and move notes to wherever you want. But the truth is that moving the note with the mouse is the most basic of steps you'll ever perform in this software. It's just not hard to do.

Ok. Now we've both vented.

Shooshie

[MIDI Life Crisis]

...but...but... then I'd have to

[bongo_x]

So, we’ve had one regular here give him crap for apologizing for bringing this up so much, and another for bringing it up again.

The grid could work better, plain and simple. It has nothing to do with the OP’s lack of skill or understanding and I don’t think it’s necessary to insult him. If you like the way it works because you’ve used it forever, then you don’t have a problem. SInce other people are unhappy with the way it works and think it could work better, MOTU has a problem, regardless of whether you’re happy or not.

“Just because those other car companies have those fancy electric starters doesn’t mean anything’s wrong with my car. Just learn how to get out there and use the crank on the front.”

Prediction; DP will have a better grid system and optional absolute grid mode by the next major release. You know why? That’s what people want.

bb

[benmrx]

Quite honestly, I cannot comprehend your problem. We've been through the options. It's just not that hard to do! Maybe you should familiarize yourself with Input Quantize, or learn the routine for Record Beats (not to be confused with tap tempo). It is found at Project/Modify Conductor Track/Record Beats. Also in the same place you will find Adjust Beats. These help you to get the "grid" perfectly aligned with your music, so that all future notes you draw in will be right in time with the existing notes.

But just seeing where you are? Just locating your hand/trackball/note with the timeline? When you start to draw in a note, or move a note, watch your cursor location in the timeline, directly above where you are clicking. If you click on a note, you will see little lines that represent the beginning and end of the selections, as well as your cursor. That gives you the perfect ability to nail the location of the note anywhere you want it. It gets to be 2nd nature, I guess, because I cannot remember EVER having the troubles you're describing, and quite frankly, I think the continual references to it in this forum are beginning to be more than a minor annoyance.

There is nothing wrong with the way we do things, my friend. You can do them this way or not, but I wish you wouldn't keep alluding to this as a problem, whether directly stated or not. Also, the implications that Logic does it the right way, but not DP, are a little insulting. We were doing this the "right way" before Logic was much more than a flowchart in its developer's Deutsch mind. I couldn't possibly count the number of notes I've entered and centered exactly where I want them. You can zoom to any level if the precision of your mouse hand is shaky. (I recommend a trackball for this -- specifically a Kensington Turbo Mouse Pro) But I used mice in many studios that didn't have trackballs, and it was never a problem. Or, you can use the Shift command and move notes to wherever you want. But the truth is that moving the note with the mouse is the most basic of steps you'll ever perform in this software. It's just not hard to do.

Ok. Now we've both vented.

Shooshie

I simply asked what peoples methods are... I never said I think DP is wrong... I may have expressed frustration..., but that's quite different than saying DP does things wrongly.

It has nothing to do with Logic.. because PT has the same behavior.. so does Ableton Live... so does Presonus' Studio One. Which is where the frustration comes from... again, just makes me curious what someones workflow might be that does alot of drawing in notes because DP is the only DAW that I've ever used that has this behavior. This is what makes it "hard to do", it's like learning to ride a bike with your hands when you've been using your feet for as long as you've been riding. Maybe I'll stop referencing Logic.... because it really has nothing to do with a specific DAW, but more to do with how the majority of DAWs work.

I'm quite familiar with input quantize and recording beats... although neither will help me... I'm drawing in notes... not playing them.

Maybe I'll post a video or something to show you what I'm talking about...

James tip on just assigning one my mouse clicks to be 'command-click' was a definate step in the right direction for me.... that's the kind of stuff I was hoping to get with this thread.

...but...but... then I'd have to

The manual doesn't tell you what DP doesn't do, nor does it give you hints for workarounds based on the way you do things... because obviously the manual can't list every workaround for every scenario for every person.... which is why I thought the forum here was a good bet at getting some hints... workarounds, etc. I've read the manual.... more than once at this point. I read bits every single night... it drives my wife nuts... it still doesn't tell me everything that might help me, but only gives me facts about what particular commands, menus, preferences, etc. accomplish.... again, this is why I come to the forums, because here I can (usually) get tips, hints, ect. that are specific to how I personally work.

This place would really benefit from adding "noob section" sub-forum, so you old-school DP'ers don't have to weed through the basic stuff, unless you want to. I'll say it again,.. my gut instinct is that DP is about to get a little (or alot) more popular.. which means you'll probably be getting more and more "noobs" 'round these parts because as far as I know, this is the only real, active forum for Digital Performer... and most things MOTU.

My intention is only to learn how to use DP the best I can... which the manual can only go so far in helping me get there. I'll tell ya what,.. I'll at least stop using the "L" word.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

No dogs allowed...

Hey, we VOLUNTEERS helps hundreds of people - sometimes per month. If we loose patience with 1% of them for things that don't particularly interest some of us, well, there's always gearslutz.

Or you can put up with us, but I doubt things will change... woof!

(I want a snarky comment emoticon! I'll save me a crapload of typing.)