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For seeking technical help with Digital Performer and/or plug-ins on MacOS.

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This forum is for seeking solutions to technical problems involving Digital Performer and/or plug-ins on MacOS, as well as feature requests, criticisms, comparison to other DAWs.
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SixStringGeek
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Post by SixStringGeek »

kassonica wrote:
David Polich wrote:Well, it was a little bit personal, but frankly I don't care that much.

Bottom line is, it's really still opinion. Not facts. Soundmaster, you may go on believing that only certain synths qualify as acceptable. That's your call and it's your money, you have to spend your money as you see fit.

As near as I can determine, "Phat" seems to mean detuned sawtooth oscillators with the filters wide open, somewhere between the typical "Hoover" sound and the "Jump" Oberheim sound, with plenty of low end.
Throw in some flanging with a slow rate and high depth, and some delay.
This is what I'm hearing off the Sylenth demos. Almost everything sounds like that in those demos. Or, in the case of bass, well...just plenty of low end, with enough between 40 and 60 hz to cause speaker cone travel to the point of clipping.
Great post and it has deepened my understanding of PHAT and synth sounds.
Well, I think I know what he means when he says Logic's bundled synths are kind of disappointing and uninspiring. I agree with that assessment. I have Logic but one thing that irked me about it right off is that the instrument selection UI tends to make bundled synths easy to find and third party ones hard to choose (or even find).

First person attacks are disappointing to see - especially here.
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blue
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Post by blue »

SixStringGeek wrote:Well, I think I know what he means when he says Logic's bundled synths are kind of disappointing and uninspiring.
I would be perfectly willing to toss all of Logic's other instruments just to keep Sculpture. It's not a synth you're going to use in everything, but it has a unique sonic character.

I don't get this whole hardware vs. software thing. To me a synth either has character or not, and the joy of using them lies in figuring out which one works best for whatever purpose. Trying to achieve The One Sound is baffling to me. I like things that dont sound like other things.
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soundmaster
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Post by soundmaster »

good sentiments monkey man and accepted with gratitude.
The bottom line is that i take fiery darts with a grain of salt as none of the others critical comebacks have had much substance to it other than snarling at me for having an opinion, and i'm old enough to understand the defensive and nasty side of human nature that tends to rear it's ugly head from time to time without a justified reason.I already know what i've achieved with my music and what it takes to compete with the big boys so i don't really mind a bit of ignorance toward me.
Polich started it by having a go at what techno heads deem to be a phat sound. I just had to verify to him that there is such a thing, and since my comparison between a tinkling triangle and the gong of a church bell he hasn't really had much to say, because i established the concept with validity and put it quite succinctly to anyone with common sense.
Other than that, i will indeed be getting a quad core iMac and DP6. my softsynths of choice will be Nexus, Sylenth1, Novation V- station, and Synth1 (if they bring out an AU version) between those four i'm in heaven and couldn't have dreamed to be in a better position.
I still think everb sounded great but i will be upgrading anyway to IK Multimedia's "Classik verb" for my digital artificial reverb and will be quite happy to use Pro-verb as my convolution handyman.
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Post by kassonica »

Be sure to post some of your work here when you get it all sorted soundmaster

http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewfor ... 52fa79a77c
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monkey man
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Post by monkey man »

Hey, no worries SM; it was a pleasure. I've suffered so much pain myself that I wouldn't wish it on anyone, and I can't seem to help doing all I can to minimise it for others. LOL

Sounds like a plan man. That IK 'verb is enjoyed by a number of 'Cornies here, and should serve you well IMHO. Sounds like you'll be set up nicely for makin' tracks judging from your wish list.

I can honestly say that David wouldn't have meant any harm by his comments, and I fully understand where he was coming from; folks seem to throw that term around at the drop of a hat, and given the wide range of sounds it's been (rightly or wrongly) used to describe, I myself couldn't blame anyone for seeking clarification from someone who claims to understand the term well.

As Kassonica suggested, please do post some of your stuff once you get going; I for one would love to hear some tech stuff done in DP as opposed to with Reason or Live hooked up to it. For one thing, it'll give me hope that I'll be able to get away with avoiding Reason and Live when I come to tackling such projects myself. Good luck man.

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kassonica
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Post by kassonica »

monkey man wrote:Hey, no worries SM; it was a pleasure. I've suffered so much pain myself that I wouldn't wish it on anyone, and I can't seem to help doing all I can to minimise it for others. LOL

Sounds like a plan man. That IK 'verb is enjoyed by a number of 'Cornies here, and should serve you well IMHO. Sounds like you'll be set up nicely for makin' tracks judging from your wish list.

I can honestly say that David wouldn't have meant any harm by his comments, and I fully understand where he was coming from; folks seem to throw that term around at the drop of a hat, and given the wide range of sounds it's been (rightly or wrongly) used to describe, I myself couldn't blame anyone for seeking clarification from someone who claims to understand the term well.

As Kassonica suggested, please do post some of your stuff once you get going; I for one would love to hear some tech stuff done in DP as opposed to with Reason or Live hooked up to it. For one thing, it'll give me hope that I'll be able to get away with avoiding Reason and Live when I come to tackling such projects myself. Good luck man.
+1

You are a dear soul Nicky best to you man :D
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soundmaster
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Post by soundmaster »

Not to drag it out, but thanks for being refreshingly down to earth, supportive, and levelheaded monkeyman.It's actually suprising that you didn't jump on the boat with everyone else and fire your machine gun at me. That is actually a very rear thing on the net. Usually everyone on a forum bands together and persecutes the detractor, but you resisted it with aplomb. :wink:
Yes Kassonica, when i get my computer and DP i'll be sure to post some of my tracks, as long as i can work out how to upload etc etc, as you know i am computer illiterate so i will have a lot of learning to do.
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Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

soundmaster wrote:Usually everyone on a forum bands together and persecutes the detractor
And why not?
(n) detractor: disparager, depreciator, knocker (one who disparages or belittles the worth of something)
detractor (plural detractors)
A person that belittles the worth of another person or cause.
And you were expecting a positive response? :roll:
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kassonica
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Post by kassonica »

MIDI Life Crisis wrote:
soundmaster wrote:Usually everyone on a forum bands together and persecutes the detractor
And why not?
(n) detractor: disparager, depreciator, knocker (one who disparages or belittles the worth of something)
detractor (plural detractors)
A person that belittles the worth of another person or cause.
And you were expecting a positive response? :roll:
:lol:
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newrigel

Post by newrigel »

soundmaster wrote:yes i'm talking about Everb, i heard it on youtube and have never heard anything better IMO. Theres a couple of demo's on youtube that show it off really nicely and i was hugely excited. First i listened and decided it was a 8.5-9 out of ten. But i never said it out aloud, then i asked my friend to rate it, and guess what? he said 8.5-9 out of ten. Either we are extremely ignorant or the Everb rocks. Remember, even the Lexicon PCM90 is old by today's standards but it surely has some of the best reverb out there, so i don't think age has much to do with it. :o

Have you heard Altiverb? ALTIVERB rips all verbs a new one for REAL environmental emulations...
But I can agree with your opinion that everb sounds good but it just doesn't give me the depth and imaging I need for vox and key elements in a mix.
But for trance and techno it would be just fine...
Oh yeah... I haven't heard these guys ever get in an uproar on this forum since I've been here so to make these guys pissed you had to really try hehe! I use both logic and DP and I have found that for my needs DP clearly has a flow to it that's more suited to composition and production in my genre of music.
With time using a DAW you'll find that "it's a different animal" altogether than tracking analog... you'll see when you have the latest and greatest that it still boils down to "do you have skills and a gift?"
I think in the end it all deals with the creative scope, and your abilities to know what NOT and what TO do to achieve the results.
Last edited by newrigel on Mon Aug 04, 2008 12:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Frodo
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Post by Frodo »

Something I never quite understood: this thread started out with bundled VIs as criterion for buying or not buying DAW. Based on that alone, DP wins?

I agree that DP is a more thoughtful DAW, but if VIs are *that* important, then it's going to take some shopping around to find the right ones to suit one's needs. If one is shopping for a VI/plugin bundle that happens to throw in a DAW on the side, then one's criteria could be considered a bit inverted.

There's nothing wrong with liking or disliking a DAW. But if you buy a DAW you do not *have* to use its plugins if they don't suit your needs. Getting involved with the DAW interface itself, however, is unavoidable.
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monkey man
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Post by monkey man »

kassonica wrote:A kind, encouraging comment.
Thank you, Mark; as you're aware, I work hard at that stuff. LOL
soundmaster wrote: A bunch of generous and appreciative comments.
You sure know how to make someone's day; thank you Soundmaster! :oops:
Frodo wrote:Something I never quite understood: this thread started out with bundled VIs as criterion for buying or not buying DAW. Based on that alone, DP wins?
Soundmaster's reasoning, based on his tastes, is spelled out in the first post, Hobby:
soundmaster wrote:... i went and checked out Logic for it's sounds, and that became the very reason why i didn't buy it.... The DP synths beat the hell out of them for sure... DP excels at quality not quantity and i will definitely be buying DP6 and using only that...
The OP is also prepared to buy a bunch of tech-oriented VIs to supplement what DP has, which he's named a few times (a narrowed-down pool of 5 or so offerings, I think).

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Post by Frodo »

monkey man wrote: Soundmaster's reasoning, based on his tastes, is spelled out in the first post, Hobby:
soundmaster wrote:... i went and checked out Logic for it's sounds, and that became the very reason why i didn't buy it.... The DP synths beat the hell out of them for sure... DP excels at quality not quantity and i will definitely be buying DP6 and using only that...
The OP is also prepared to buy a bunch of tech-oriented VIs to supplement what DP has, which he's named a few times (a narrowed-down pool of 5 or so offerings, I think).
Yes, and these are the very points, I think that raised my initial questions when weighed together.

As I said, there's nothing wrong with asserting one's taste and making one's own choices to suit their needs. Supplementing a DAW is something that would benefit both Logic and DP. On that point, the criteria are even. I'm actually delighted for personal reasons that DP was soundmaster's choice, make no mistake.

But if the intent was always to supplement with third-party VIs, then I still don't quite understand why/how bundled VIs could be the deal breaker when there are so many other things to consider when choosing a DAW alone.

When dealing with bundled synths, IF that was really the main consideration, one cannot count on finding expansion sounds out there. You really have to get down and dirty with programming these things to fully assess what they can and cannot do, which is often a matter apart from the starter sounds that are thrown in. Such patches do not *always* speak to the fullness of any synth's capabilities.

That whittles things down to those bundled VIs into which sounds can be imported, ie: ESX24 and Nanosampler. You'd have to use each to get a clear understanding of their differences. The ESX24 has a lot more in common with MachFive or Kontakt than Nanosampler does in terms of programmability and flexibility.

Where the considerations were about quality vs quantity, I'll concede that quality is *entirely* personal for the sake of this post. As for quantity, Logic has a much longer history of offering VIs than DP does. Where DP has had fx plugins for many years, it should be noted that both DAWs still include plugins of one sort or another that have over the years taken on decreasing importance.

Perhaps reading the entire thread at once left a very different impression that it might have had I followed along daily, but somehow I think many important points were overshadowed once things turned negative.

Now that I think about it, I really haven't contributed to this thread in any way that has been particularly helpful or enlightening in an effort just to understand things a bit better. The most important thing is that soundmaster has reached his decision.
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Post by soundmaster »

well yeah, and hey can you believe this(because others can't). Even though youtube is only (supposedly) streaming MP3 audio,IMO it still manages to convey the overall sound quality of a plugin. On that basis i absolutely loved the sound of Bassline,Polysynth, and Modulo. Add the fact that the Nanosampler does what one would need it to do without all the fuss and i'm more than happy with DP, cause i certainly don't like any of the crap that comes with Logic, esspecially the included sounds and presets.
And because several people in here have told me they prefer the workflow of DP over Logic and considering DP now has Proverb, the LA2A plug, plus mastering tools included, and dare i say it, That excellent Everb, then i'm more than happy to go with DP and make the best of it.
I only hope DP will catch up with the reputed mastery of Logic when it comes to CPU efficiency and low latency use. :shock:
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monkey man
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Post by monkey man »

I hear you Hobby. I think the facts that SM found the Logic instruments to be, to his ears at least, "thin-sounding", an attribute of many VIs that he seems to be sensitive to (I realised I'd forgotten to include a quote to this effect after I'd posted, but figured that for the purposes of the post, the fact that I'd included his statement about DP's vs Logic's VIs should have sufficed), and that he found quite the opposite to be true regarding DP's offerings (could it be an oscillator-rendering thing, where DP's VIs use a little more grunt to effectively construct more accurate waveforms?), were instrumental(!) in his decision-making process.

Soundmaster, I hear you too. Good call on NanoSampler also; I think that for the genres you'll be working in, a quick-and-easy player with filter cutoff, resonance and amp control is really all you should need most of the time as far as samplers are concerned. FWIW, that puppy is supposed to sound like a hardware AKAI sampler, which as you'd know was most popular with the dance/hip-hop fraternity back in the day. The EMUs tended to be used more by the fusion, rock, pop and soundtrack crowds, from what I could tell, although many on the pop scene swore by the AKAIs, as did I for a while.

Funnily enough, I do agree that basic qualitative judgements can be made from U-Toob vids. My recent dissing of SaxLab2 being a prime example. Yuk! (Sorry). Comparing two high-end preamps, microphones or EQs would be inadvisable, but that'd be another matter entirely, methinks.

Again, welcome to the world of DP, man.

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