828 mk3 is real

[Rainman]

Closer inspection of a blow-up of the back of the MkIII at the Motu website shows FireWire 400 ports. Other than perhaps a cost issue, is there any reason anyone can think of why they wouldn't go 800?

[Rainman]

Should also mention that I'm still using an original 828 so a move to the MkIII should be quite noticeable, hell I've never even used Q-mix. Oddly enough I was just researching new interfaces the other day and had basically decided to get a MkII along with DP 6.

[pcm]

I have owned MANY motu interfaces: 2408, 2408mk2, 2408mk3, two 1296's, an hd192, a 828, and two Travelers. My last careful A/B test was between the 192 and the Traveler. I used the hd192 to print a mix back into DP, by way of analog out, back into analog in. I knew this was not the best audiophile approach, but I deemed it acceptable. I sold all of my motu pci gear to make room for two Pro Tools HD3 systems (no more open pci slots!). I replaced my motu pci gear with two Travelers. Three weeks after the above test, I had to re-print this mix, so I set it up the same way. The different was not subtle, the Traveler was very audibly inferior to the (motu) hd192. So I called motu tech support and asked them if there was any way I could print the mix without bounce-to-disk (I use outboard Lexicons and my Eventide Harmonizer), or using any digital I/O (I had used up all of the digital I/O). Actually, I made two calls to two different techs, both fruitless. Then I happened upon (almost by accident) a method of using Cuemix to send the (still digital) mix back to DP. I carefully compared it to both the Traveler and HD192 versions. What I found was that it was as much better than the hd192 version as the 192 version was to the Traveler version. Which is to say that even the hd192 leaves much to be desired. My final opinion: hd912 - good, but not great, and the Traveler - only sounds good if you don't compare it to something that actually is "good".

Both of my Travelers have shockingly lousy signal-to-noise performance. The analog outs have a noise floor at about 45dB, which means if you do even a medium loud playback, and hit stop, you can easily hear noise. This is on every single output, and on both interfaces, which are in two different studios, one hundred miles apart. The mic preamps are just as noisy. Like a poster above, I occasionally do live classical concerts, and the motu preamps are not at all useable. If you type in "Traveler" and "noise" into the Unicornation search engine, you will see more than you want to see. I mentioned all of this to a motu guy at AES, and he just ranted on how the interface had won awards. I was really surprised that he though that he could adopt that kind of response.

To sum up, I have owned a ton of motu gear over the years (several MIDI interfaces as well), but my Traveler purchases have removed the "no-brainer" of buying motu gear. The 828mk3 looks great on paper, but if it has the same flaws and QC issues of the Traveler, there are going to be some mighty disappointed people out there.

As far as convertor quality goes, motu intefaces generally have "adat-quality" convertors, garden-variety stuff, with the hd192 being a step above. Among my shootouts in the past have been to plug in adat machines as the A-to-D, and compare. For a while I used a bank of Alesis M20 machines as the front end to the 2408s, and that was a cut above the motu convertors. Of course my Apogee PSX100 smoked them all, and my Digidesign 192s are even better. I mention all this just to show my reference point.

Really good convertors cost a lot of money. The 828mk3 has at least 16 of them in it. For $795., you are expecting a lot. If the unit works as advertised, that will be enough. $795. might not buy a lot of quality control, as the Traveler has proven to me.

[pcm]

Closer inspection of a blow-up of the back of the MkIII at the Motu website shows FireWire 400 ports. Other than perhaps a cost issue, is there any reason anyone can think of why they wouldn't go 800?

Aside from a few hard drive manufacturers, no one in the industry has embraced fw800. Plus, fw400 is more than capable of handling that many channels. Even in the late 90's I never had any trouble transferring 24 channels of 2" tape thru a single cable using my 2408.

[Frodo]

Closer inspection of a blow-up of the back of the MkIII at the Motu website shows FireWire 400 ports. Other than perhaps a cost issue, is there any reason anyone can think of why they wouldn't go 800?

It's probably a combination of expense and the more universal standard of 400 over 800. That 400 and 800 ports fold into the same single 33MHz bus on all but the latest Macs anyway probably doesn't offer much of a benefit, although I've not looked into fw specs on PCs in this regard.

FWIW-- the firewire bus has been updated on the latest 8-Core Mac to 2.5Ghz, which is a vast improvement and a Mac first. This alone will mean less fw bus clog, but I'd sooner think that the reason why MOTU is not supporting 800 as a standard is because their hardware max's out well under the 393 Mbit/sec.

[fokof]

Really good convertors cost a lot of money. The 828mk3 has at least 16 of them in it. For $795., you are expecting a lot. If the unit works as advertised, that will be enough. $795. might not buy a lot of quality control, as the Traveler has proven to me.

+1

For that kind of price , you can't expect to have very top , Hi-end type quality.
You can't have a Ferrari for 1000$ , same thing with everything else including audio.
If you want a f******g good preamp , good power amp , good reference , get ready to spend the dough , big time dough.

I think it's a very bad idea to compare a Traveler to a PTHD system or a PSX100 , you talk about a sub 1K unit compared to multi K units.
Of course it won't sound the same...

I have a HD192 and for that price , nothing on the market comes close.
PLEASE consider the word PRICE.

Same for the 828mkIII. Haven't heard it but those feature ...... that price.....hard to beat. Metric Halo stuff is (for sure) better , but again , how many 828mkIII can you buy for the price of a 2882?

It all depends on the depth of your VISA card....

[gearboy]

It's not the converters that are the problem with the MKII. It's the clock and the analog path. Once those two things are improved, it sounds great.

From a past thread that I posted to:

Red vs. stock Oktava caps, Apogee Duet vs. BLA 828mk2...

The following files were all recorded with the same MK-012 preamp/body and 10' Monster XLR cable. I paid close attention to gain staging but of course there will be slight differences. My Taylor 310ce was miked at the 12th fret approx 6" away for each 24-bit 44.1kHz WAV file. All files are presented here with no EQ and no processing of any kind. Straight off the microphones and raw.

Apogee Duet:
Red MK-12 Capsule
Oktava MK-012 Cardioid
Oktava MK-012 Omni

MOTU 828mk2 w/ BLA mod (analog/clock):
Red MK-12 Capsule
Oktava MK-012 Cardioid
Oktava MK-012 Omni

I know that this doesn't represent a big mix, but the modded 828mk2 plays fine with the Duet. Total investment at the time for the 828mk2 + mod was about $900. This is the older Black Lion mod. the new mod replaces the analog path only and allows you to pick up the MicroClock at a discount. The MicroClock improves on the clock in my modded 828mk2.
So, you are getting quality that is much more than the under $1000 range of interfaces. The Duet has the same mojo under the hood as the Ensemble, however, it is a scaled down 2x2 interface.

Not trying to hijack this thread with more BLA stuff yet again. However, it needs to be said that the MOTU stuff is good and that a little help makes it great. I'm totally happy.

Jeff

[enigmatunes]

I think Frodo has it right regarding the non-need for FW800 on an audio interface. Although, perhaps using multiple FW audio devices simultaneously would benefit from a FW800 connection...
Anywho, right now it seems like the only devices that might actually require FW800 would be the pro video boxes (like the V3HD).

Also, what's this thread doing in the Digital Performer forum? There's an 828mk3 thread overe in the OSX hardware forum:
http://www.unicornation.com/phpBB2/view ... hp?t=26161

[Frodo]

Anywho, right now it seems like the only devices that might actually require FW800 would be the pro video boxes (like the V3HD).

True-- and the V3 is roughly 3x the price. I really think the 828mk3 might be better served on the new 2.5Ghz busses when used in multiples, but the 828mk3 appears to be designed primarily for compact convenience (lots of stuff in one box) with some multi-unit possibilities under the right conditions.

[Shooshie]

sdemott,
Which MOTU interfaces have you owed or tried?
The HD192, the Traveler? Have you been involved in converter shoot outs?

The 828mk3 appears to be unbeatable at that price point. Metric Halo
can't compete with that.

Please send us a link to the projects you've mixed lately so we can get
a gauge of how good your ears are.

Thanks

Look - really don't want to go down the "whose ears are better...who knows more" because you only end up offending people.

A large part of my business is audiophile location recording of classical music. The MOTU interfaces are just not up to the task. They smear the low end, have a sterile high-end and a veiled middle.

I have never owned a MOTU interface because in my tests they never compared. I have, though, tested most of them going back to the original 2408. They are 'alright', but my needs are significantly better than alright.

If you must hear some work:

When someone asked you to post links to your work so he could judge your ears, I just rolled my eyes and thought "oh no... why do people do these things." But now I'm glad he did! I've been listening to your stuff, Steve, and I'm just blown away. You're really good at this! I could learn a lot from you, as could everyone else, if you'd just talk to us about what you do. You're a talented and highly skilled man, my friend.

Shooshie

[newrigel]

motuhelper - please forgive my ignorance, but do you work for Motu? Thanks - my question isn't meant to imply anything, I just wanted to know if that's what your screen name is intended to say.

I doubt it as the MOTU guys stay out of the fray. It's not impossible you know that someone might have favorable things to say about MOTU on a board devoted to discussion of MOTU hardware and software, you know. I think MOTU makes some fine interfaces and I currently own an HD192 and a 24 I/O and have been quite pleased with both.

James probably has a "golden unit" he-he...

[James Steele]

Far from it. I still have a gripe with the fan noise on my HD192. Sometimes, when I start it up it's really bad and I have to power cycle it a few times before the fan dies down to an "acceptable" level.

[nk_e]

I have a feeling that 828mk3 overview shows us new software that MOTU did not show at NAMM with DP6 and that is a new version of Cuemix called Cuemix FX. Since this Cuemix for the 828 is all new...I have a feeling DP6 will have the same one. It even looks like the DP6 interface a bit.

Very cool

Does anyone think a version of CueMix FX will be available for MkII owners (sans FX of course). I like the redesign.

G

[gearboy]

Does anyone think a version of CueMix FX will be available for MkII owners (sans FX of course). I like the redesign.

G

Possibly. The 828mkII is still for sale on the MOTU site as a USB2.0 interface. I can't see them not updating CueMix for it as well, however obviously scaled down in some regards. That is, unless they roll out the USB2.0 version of the MK3 sometime soon.

Jeff

[Shooshie]

Far from it. I still have a gripe with the fan noise on my HD192. Sometimes, when I start it up it's really bad and I have to power cycle it a few times before the fan dies down to an "acceptable" level.

James, same thing on my 1296, the predecessor of the HD192. I finally went to Fry's, bought a fan, and put it in there. It's slightly louder than the original fan when it was running correctly, but it never "acts up." It's quite a job. There were something like 84 screws to remove before I could replace the fan. But there's no soldering. I'm going to do it again once I find a really, really good fan. The one I put in cost all of $6. There are some very good ones out there if you can just find them.

The fans that they put in those are usually one of two types: a Titan TFD-501005C (5VDC, 0.14A) or a TFD-5010M05C.

I couldn't find either one, so I just put a plain Bb fan in until I can find a better one. It's not even rated at the same voltage, but it seems to put the same amount of air through (just feeling of the airflow with my hand). Besides, I figured that if I put the same kind of fan in there, it would just go bad like the original. There's some company that makes quiet fans. I think one is called the Viking. This one was roughly 2 inches square. You can easily measure the holes, since they are drilled through the side where the vent is. One problem: with the provided screws, only a very low-profile fan will work. The original fan was just over a quarter inch thick. The one I replaced it with is about a 3/4 inch (20 mm). I had to drill the holes in the fan a half-inch deeper to be able to use the same screws.

Not that anyone asked, but hey, it's a problem, and this is the only solution I know of -- replace the darn thing!

Shooshie