ProTools MIDI advantage..Embarrassed for MOTU/AppleCore MIDI

MIDI Life Crisis · Post by **MIDI Life Crisis** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 5:06 pm

toodamnhip wrote:I don't know much about MIDI buffers..where do I find such a setting?

As I recall (and I won't touch my system as it is working) you run Garageband and one of the preferences is a MIDI buffer setting. But it sets it system wide. One of the advantages of owning the OS and the app I guess?

toodamnhip · Post by **toodamnhip** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 5:20 pm

MIDI Life Crisis wrote:
toodamnhip wrote:I don't know much about MIDI buffers..where do I find such a setting?
As I recall (and I won't touch my system as it is working) you run Garageband and one of the preferences is a MIDI buffer setting. But it sets it system wide. One of the advantages of owning the OS and the app I guess?

So what setting was it at BEFORE you touched it? What did you change it to?
Will you do us all a favor and run this by MOTU for their opinion? It sounds like if what you are saying is correct, it would be a very important thing to know about....officially

Thanks....

Dave

toodamnhip · Post by **toodamnhip** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 5:23 pm

Frodo wrote:There are a couple of angles to all this:

Many people here agree that there are some features not included with DP that they'd like to see

Not everyone agrees on what parameters are most important because everyone has a different workflow and different needs.

TDH's point was valid insofar as PT had a feature he liked and would like to see in DP. I think such features are perhaps more important to him-- and that alone makes it important.

Now, for someone else- working on the fly (whether it's touted as doable or not) is not as important, and that's valid, too.

For others, new features are entirely secondary to stability-- and there's nothing wrong with that either.

For some people, Consoles are the end of the world. For others they are of no consequence, yet Consoles takes up one of the longest chapters in the manual. What's important hinges almost entirely on who is using it and what their needs are.

Personally, I learn as much about DP by reading other people's feature requests, praises, and criticisms as I do from reading the manual and experimenting on my own. There's no harm in that as long as it's clear why a certain point is being made or why a certain feature might sorely missing in that person's view.

It does happen from time to time that an impression is left of one person beating up on another person's sacred cow, so to sepak, but that's why we come here: to lay it all out on the table-- and honesty is the quickest route to getting to the truth.

So T-David-H: keep on preaching, bro. It's not like we don't *know* you around here and understand where you're coming from. Perhaps if your comments had come from someone less familiar, the intent *might* have to be challenged.

I've got my complaints about DP, too, and they may be different from yours-- but that has nothing to do with having a lack of respect for your opinion. In fact, I agree with 99 44/100% of your posts. Further, I've had some of my opinions changed by the comments of others here. That's what a good forum is all about.

Thanks bro..

However, I don;t think of not glitching and stability as a feature...

It is a responsibility..ad in this case, an embarrassment...lol..see how I did that?

Got back to the title of the thread? Pretty cool eh..

..Joke joke joke...

DDave

MIDI Life Crisis · Post by **MIDI Life Crisis** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 5:37 pm

toodamnhip wrote:
MIDI Life Crisis wrote:
toodamnhip wrote:I don't know much about MIDI buffers..where do I find such a setting?
As I recall (and I won't touch my system as it is working) you run Garageband and one of the preferences is a MIDI buffer setting. But it sets it system wide. One of the advantages of owning the OS and the app I guess?
So what setting was it at BEFORE you touched it? What did you change it to?
Will you do us all a favor and run this by MOTU for their opinion? It sounds like if what you are saying is correct, it would be a very important thing to know about....officially

Thanks....

Dave

I don;t recall what the default setting was, but once I ran GBand, the setting that was in that preference seems to have affected DP and Finale. Right now, the GBand settings are Audio/MIDI: Optimize for Max. # of tracks; Advanced- Real Instr: 255; Software Instr: 64. These are the Max settings. Voices per instr are at AUTO, but don;t seem to be at issue.

Feel free to report this to MOTU. I don't have time to do so.

zandurian · Post by **zandurian** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 9:13 pm

WSVP wrote:
the MIDI problems are INSANE! Remember the little alesis mmt8? Flawless MIDI from a little box with only 1/1000 (or less) of a g5's power!!!! This isn't about cost - it's just bad code.
Sorry, but I had a very different experience with this one. I had an MMT8 in fact I still have it (somewhere) and I must say in my opinion it was the most unstable piece of junk ever built. It used to lock up all the time erasing all the data. In fact it was because of the MMT8 "horror show" that I wound up buying a Mac SE (2 floppy drive only) and Performer 2.3. I have a few friends who also had very bad experiences with the MMT8.

I will say that the quality control at MOTU back in those days was immensely better than it is now.

Wow, I guess I was just really lucky with the mmt8. What's insane is that I can't depend on a pedal off signal to stop a piano note every time.

bradswan · Post by **bradswan** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 8:28 am

In TDH's initial post he mentions not only DP's MIDI but Apple Core's potential role in this. My experience is that DP's MIDI excellence went away and has yet to come back since the switch to OSX. I have resigned myself to lower expectations and work arounds to get the job done. These days I am using a gazillion MIDI and VI tracks so I have come face to face with the glitchy MIDI and the unpredictable, poorly designed DP freeze function more than ever. I'm not using any other DAW's, but if there are similar issues with the others I would like to here about it, but also ask is this a consequence of Apple Core and is the software at the mercy of Apple?

Thanks and I agree it's vital that we help motivate Motu to keep pushing the envelope to make the best DAW possible.

Tobor · Post by **Tobor** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 10:01 am

I'd like to echo Bradswan's post. 'Low expectations and work arounds' has kept me from firing up DP much these days, turning what used to be a joy into a chore. I would also like to know what other sequencers I might turn to for more accurate MIDI timing when used with midiclock and MTC, just in case the MIDI gremlins never get fixed. It's obvious from various threads referencing DP 5.X that progress in addressing ongoing MIDI problem areas has been marginal at best.

Thanks to markwayne for checking in again as well, and for his always informative and level-headed posts. Just to chime in with the basic premise of this thread, for many of us longtime DP fans and MIDI users, it's important to have Motu concentrate on dealing with the MIDI stability issues FIRST and FOREMOST.

I've been waiting to upgrade my computer until I see progress in the MIDI department. I've also been thinking of finally tossing out my old 68XXX Performa that I haven't used in years. Then I had the disheartening thought that if I plugged it back in with my old Opcode Studio + 2 and fired up Performer (pre DP) 4.5, I'd probably have better midiclock sync than I have now.

I used to record some ideas while a little drunk late at night, and DP would accurately reveal how sloppy I was. Now I record straight, and my sequencer is drunk. (Just kidding.....sort of....)

Tobor

markwayne · Post by **markwayne** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 11:54 am

As I recall (and I won't touch my system as it is working) you run Garageband and one of the preferences is a MIDI buffer setting. But it sets it system wide. One of the advantages of owning the OS and the app I guess?

That is interesting. I have just recently gotten around to installing Gargeband. I'll have to go back and check some of my MIDI torture sessions now in DP and see if there's any improvement.

To those looking for a solid, MIDI groove, monster DAW all I can say (and it's not always received well here) is that Logic and Live 5 both have displayed rock-solid MIDI for me under OSX on my particular rig. Live is not a real option for serious work for me (though it is a really cool program) due to an almost complete lack of editing tools, and Logic is . . . well . . . Logic. If you get it, I guess it's great, but I always feel like I'm punching underwater when trying to edit MIDI there.

Hey Tobor. Sorry to hear you are still having MIDI problems. I think we had put together at one time that MTC was a common component in our troubles. I said this another post, but I'll repeat it here: I recently started using ipMIDI to transmit MTC to my slave PCs and it has helped DP a great deal. I had a couple of MIDI-only sequences that were unplayable in DP with all the Hickups, tempi changes, pauses, flams. With ipMIDI routing MTC and beat clocks instead of my MTPav, these sequences now play back fairly straight. It's not perfect, but it's a 100% improvement! I would strongly recommend that you take a look at this utility. BTW - I think you also had some hardware boxes that needed MTC. I just have one of my PCs echo MTC on a physical port to sync those boxes.

good luck,
Wayne

croyal · Post by **croyal** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 1:49 pm

I agree that TDH has a right to want DP to edit on the fly glitch free. However - comparing DP to a different, albeit much more costly, system makes his wants seem like the same old bitching we've grown to expect from him. SOS- he makes a good point but over-hypes to get a reaction, thus negating his original point.

1. Truth is that DP has always had some MIDI issues- even Performer vs. 1. Performer's deal was always that it made EDITING MIDI easy. But MIDI was indeed an issue on a Mac Plus, Mac SE/30, II, IIfx, etc.

2. PTHD processing is handled by the cards. So, glitchfree playback of MIDI is possible. As was stated by someone else, PTLE glitches all over the place when editing (possibly even more than DP) when making similar types of edits during playback.

Faster main CPU is not the same as a dedicated cards. Faster CPUs allow consecutive events to happen faster. But cards allow concurrent operations- like drawing the screen while transposing MIDI or Audio. Complaining about DP in this situation is like bitching that your solo pianist can't play a full orchestration as well as the 2 pianists (4 hands) did at another venue. Dual Core only splits the operations; the chips can't be dedicated to a particular app or functions of an app.

Now, if someone would develop a DP accelerator card- comparing it to PT would be worth even considering. And I'll take 3 cards, thank you very much.

3. MOTU should not be expected to overcome the OS' limitations any more than we are expected to overcome DP's limitations. Ooops, that's what we used to do; find the limits of the software and then find a way around the botteneck. IMHO native systems will always be underpowered in some way- yet PT is not the way for me to go. (BTW I used to have a PT rig)

In the end, let's be realistic about what we can expect from any app. If you can't run 96 tracks without hiccup- don't blame MOTU, Sonar, Logic, Apple, or anybody. Just try running 90 or fewer tracks until you find the limit. Then be human enough to accept the consequences if you exceed that limit. DP's MIDI has issues, so what's new? MIDI has issues. That's one reason why people started bouncing synth parts to tape/ disk and then time correcting the audio. Some people, like BT, only record audio. MIDI is used as a trigger because of those same timing issues (even with Logic). He wouldn't switch to DP or another app; he just understands the timing issue and has developed a work flow around it.

Chris

toodamnhip · Post by **toodamnhip** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 3:11 pm

Tobor wrote:I'd like to echo Bradswan's post. 'Low expectations and work arounds' has kept me from firing up DP much these days, turning what used to be a joy into a chore. I would also like to know what other sequencers I might turn to for more accurate MIDI timing when used with midiclock and MTC, just in case the MIDI gremlins never get fixed. It's obvious from various threads referencing DP 5.X that progress in addressing ongoing MIDI problem areas has been marginal at best.

Thanks to markwayne for checking in again as well, and for his always informative and level-headed posts. Just to chime in with the basic premise of this thread, for many of us longtime DP fans and MIDI users, it's important to have Motu concentrate on dealing with the MIDI stability issues FIRST and FOREMOST.

I've been waiting to upgrade my computer until I see progress in the MIDI department. I've also been thinking of finally tossing out my old 68XXX Performa that I haven't used in years. Then I had the disheartening thought that if I plugged it back in with my old Opcode Studio + 2 and fired up Performer (pre DP) 4.5, I'd probably have better midiclock sync than I have now.

I used to record some ideas while a little drunk late at night, and DP would accurately reveal how sloppy I was. Now I record straight, and my sequencer is drunk. (Just kidding.....sort of....)

Tobor

I think MOTU is bit stuck in bells and whistles land...while these are all nice, it is not very "glamorous" to tout "STABILITY" as an improvement, and, it tacitly admits to prior IN stability...doesn't it? wink

toodamnhip · Post by **toodamnhip** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 3:16 pm

croyal wrote:I agree that TDH has a right to want DP to edit on the fly glitch free. However - comparing DP to a different, albeit much more costly, system makes his wants seem like the same old bitching we've grown to expect from him. SOS- he makes a good point but over-hypes to get a reaction, thus negating his original point.

1. Truth is that DP has always had some MIDI issues- even Performer vs. 1. Performer's deal was always that it made EDITING MIDI easy. But MIDI was indeed an issue on a Mac Plus, Mac SE/30, II, IIfx, etc.

2. PTHD processing is handled by the cards. So, glitchfree playback of MIDI is possible. As was stated by someone else, PTLE glitches all over the place when editing (possibly even more than DP) when making similar types of edits during playback.

Faster main CPU is not the same as a dedicated cards. Faster CPUs allow consecutive events to happen faster. But cards allow concurrent operations- like drawing the screen while transposing MIDI or Audio. Complaining about DP in this situation is like bitching that your solo pianist can't play a full orchestration as well as the 2 pianists (4 hands) did at another venue. Dual Core only splits the operations; the chips can't be dedicated to a particular app or functions of an app.

Now, if someone would develop a DP accelerator card- comparing it to PT would be worth even considering. And I'll take 3 cards, thank you very much.

3. MOTU should not be expected to overcome the OS' limitations any more than we are expected to overcome DP's limitations. Ooops, that's what we used to do; find the limits of the software and then find a way around the botteneck. IMHO native systems will always be underpowered in some way- yet PT is not the way for me to go. (BTW I used to have a PT rig)

In the end, let's be realistic about what we can expect from any app. If you can't run 96 tracks without hiccup- don't blame MOTU, Sonar, Logic, Apple, or anybody. Just try running 90 or fewer tracks until you find the limit. Then be human enough to accept the consequences if you exceed that limit. DP's MIDI has issues, so what's new? MIDI has issues. That's one reason why people started bouncing synth parts to tape/ disk and then time correcting the audio. Some people, like BT, only record audio. MIDI is used as a trigger because of those same timing issues (even with Logic). He wouldn't switch to DP or another app; he just understands the timing issue and has developed a work flow around it.

Chris

Dude..you're completely missing the point that DP USED to paste glitch free...thus, your point that Pro Tols is superior because of it's card is invalid. For if that were true, DP NEVER would have been able to paste without glitching..think man, think before you type...and really duplicate my posts...

The only thing you said that was valid was about me hyping things a bit..I do that on purpose to wake up the sleeping people..lol

sdfalk · Post by **sdfalk** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 3:46 pm

Not to risk the wrath/sarcasm of TDH, but since I mentioned previously
that my le system DOES actually glitch with playback/stop and the TDM system
doesn't, wouldn't the card have something to do with it?

Adam Arfaras · Post by **Adam Arfaras** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 8:03 pm

In the mind of an engineer "on the fly" is synonymous with expedience and production. In the mind of an artist, "on the fly" is a technique synonymous with mediocrity! As for the PT pci card. They sound great! just as great as an HD192 with a Big Ben, Avalon, the UA card and some nice mics. UA, DP, Logic and Apogee have de throned Pro Tools. Most serious artist don't bother going to a studio any longer, they buy one!

Frodo · Post by **Frodo** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 8:17 pm

Adam Arfaras wrote:In the mind of an engineer "on the fly" is synonymous with expedience and production. In the mind of an artist, "on the fly" is a technique synonymous with mediocrity!

Hey---- I like that!!

Since the DAW user plays the role of both engineer and musician, the conflict with interpretation takes on a whole new internal meaning.

toodamnhip · Post by **toodamnhip** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 11:50 pm

sdfalk wrote:Not to risk the wrath/sarcasm of TDH, but since I mentioned previously
that my le system DOES actually glitch with playback/stop and the TDM system
doesn't, wouldn't the card have something to do with it?

Well..maybe, but I really don;t care. It is silly for DP to go backwards...so if it;s a pro tools card, or the color of one's couach, all these "reasons" mean nothing to me...

MOTU has to get their MIDI tight again..period...who cares why it isn;t currently "tigh"