ProTools MIDI advantage..Embarrassed for MOTU/AppleCore MIDI

toodamnhip · Post by **toodamnhip** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 11:22 am

Having been working intensively on Pro Tools again at a sister studio, I am embarrassed for MOTU that in Pro Tools, you can edit, copy and paste MIDI on the fly without glitching play back.

Although the MIDI is way more primitive in Pro Tools and there are wonderful advantages in DP, it is unacceptable to me that the MIDI is more stable, consistent and "un" glitching. It's like the devil having an advantage in the matters of morals...DP should be kicking Pro Tools asses in MIDI...

What say you?...

Try to copy and paste MIDI in DP on the fly, then try this in Pro Tools...then you'll feel my pain..lol...

The stability of Pro Tools MIDI over DP is an embarrassment..

Dave

Frodo · Post by **Frodo** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 11:37 am

Dunno, TDH. ProTools was initially developed for and supported by audio engineers where audio editing was its primary objective. For those dealing with MIDI, ProTools' shortcomings are clear in this regard. Where DP doesn't go far enough in one direction, ProTools doesn't go far enough in the other direction.

The strengths of each app are what's worthy of assessment.

toodamnhip · Post by **toodamnhip** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 11:46 am

Frodo wrote:Dunno, TDH. ProTools was initially developed for and supported by audio engineers where audio editing was its primary objective. For those dealing with MIDI, ProTools' shortcomings are clear in this regard. Where DP doesn't go far enough in one direction, ProTools doesn't go far enough in the other direction.

The strengths of each app are what's worthy of assessment.

Of course, and it is mostly a matter of amusement the various advantages and dis advantages between platforms...

But it has been a clear trend the folks around here have complained that DP's MIDI has gone downhill as far as stablity, glitching, muted notes sounding...
And why can't DP mute MIDI notes and pro tools can? I love being able to mute sections of mid called regions..

And why can I paste MIDI in pro tools, but in DP. the whole song glitches, coughing and belching...

I think DP has a very unacceptable cold....a virus..lol.
Perhaps DP has been sleeping with some infected harlot and needs to start getting more rest?

Resonant Alien · Post by **Resonant Alien** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 12:01 pm

Are you talking about Pro Tools HD/TDM or Pro Tools LE native? If it is HD/TDM, it is not even a fair or meaningful comparison since you are comparing native Mac CPU and a $500 app to non-native processing and $10k-$15k.

toodamnhip · Post by **toodamnhip** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 12:06 pm

Resonant Alien wrote:Are you talking about Pro Tools HD/TDM or Pro Tools LE native? If it is HD/TDM, it is not even a fair or meaningful comparison since you are comparing native Mac CPU and a $500 app to non-native processing and $10k-$15k.

Talking bout Pro Tools HD...

As far as price comparisons,

That could be a valid statement if not for the fact that DP MIDI was stable long ago, and has gone backwards in this area. Features up, performance shakey has been a montra around here for some time.

Understand me here bro, in studiop circles, I am known for being the DP guy, the dp lover..I boast about DP features all the time..but I am a bit pissed about this MIDI flakiness occassionally exhibited by DP.

I suppose it is a result of Mac OSx..but I wonder how Pro Tools can avoid MIDI problems of the kind I have mentioned?

It also has it's MIDI in the OSx environment from what I understand.

Perhaps a more knowlegable programmer would like to chime in here as to why DP is more subject to MIDI problems compared to Pro tools when they both use core MIDI.

For me, I just want to be able to copy and paste MIDI without DP coughing like a little baby.

It never did that before..

cough....cough.....

Dave

giles117 · Post by **giles117** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 1:05 pm

Keep this in mind. The PT software is not doing the streaming for you, once th code is loaded into the HD hardware it takes over playback, linking to the software for start stop.

Ever in a PT session an the program crashes yet PT finishes playing your song?????

So of course the edits are seamless in HD without glitching.

Now on that other note. Perhaps MOTU needs a big financial backer (like avid) to help fund new programmers to address these little things that are slipping through and piling up.

DP will still be my choice and I do MAINLY audio.

PT has advantages, but notice that their stock is down 14% they claim it's the intel transition. I disagree. People are jumping ship and they will continue to do so.

Just my nickel..

toodamnhip · Post by **toodamnhip** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 1:21 pm

giles117 wrote:Keep this in mind. The PT software is not doing the streaming for you, once th code is loaded into the HD hardware it takes over playback, linking to the software for start stop.

Ever in a PT session an the program crashes yet PT finishes playing your song?????

So of course the edits are seamless in HD without glitching.

Now on that other note. Perhaps MOTU needs a big financial backer (like avid) to help fund new programmers to address these little things that are slipping through and piling up.

DP will still be my choice and I do MAINLY audio.

PT has advantages, but notice that their stock is down 14% they claim it's the intel transition. I disagree. People are jumping ship and they will continue to do so.

Just my nickel..

Please re-explain why you think PT doesn't glitch on it's MIDI, I didnt quite understand you

Frodo · Post by **Frodo** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 2:31 pm

I'm not sure he meant MIDI, unless I'm mistaken....

I've never looked inside of one of the Digidesign I/O boxes, but that it's 2U running 16 channels as opposed to a MOTU box running 24 I/Os has to speak to some measure of extra muscle involved.

And just a quick peek at the PCI cards for both models-- the Digidesign card looks like an areal view of a major city compared to the MOTU 424 card. Seems to be a lot more going on with Digidesign hardware in general-- but justifying the price is another thing to consider, as was already mentioned.

sdfalk · Post by **sdfalk** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 2:51 pm

I have a Protools Le system at home and MIDI/audio can absolutley glitch
on playback/stop whilst editing.

blue · Post by **blue** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 2:51 pm

toodamnhip wrote:
giles117 wrote:Keep this in mind. The PT software is not doing the streaming for you, once th code is loaded into the HD hardware it takes over playback, linking to the software for start stop.

Ever in a PT session an the program crashes yet PT finishes playing your song?????

So of course the edits are seamless in HD without glitching.

Now on that other note. Perhaps MOTU needs a big financial backer (like avid) to help fund new programmers to address these little things that are slipping through and piling up.

DP will still be my choice and I do MAINLY audio.

PT has advantages, but notice that their stock is down 14% they claim it's the intel transition. I disagree. People are jumping ship and they will continue to do so.

Just my nickel..
Please re-explain why you think PT doesn't glitch on it's MIDI, I didnt quite understand you

I think he was implying that it's not MIDI that's the problem, but audio playback. If playback is handled by the PT hardware, then the assumption is that audio won't glitch when making editing moves such as moving a block of MIDI around.

MIDI Life Crisis · Post by **MIDI Life Crisis** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 3:16 pm

toodamnhip wrote:.... in Pro Tools, you can edit, copy and paste MIDI on the fly without glitching play back... Dave

And that is useful for...? I frequently will change things during playback and don't experience any glitches. But if even if I had to stop to edit (which I don't) I don't see any big advantage to what you are describing. I'd much rather have the array of features for data manipulation that DP offers, not to mention the more ergonomic human interface. I just cannot wrap my mind around PTools. Never could, probably will never have to...

> Try to copy and paste MIDI in DP on the fly, then try this in Pro Tools...then you'll feel my pain..lol... <

Have not tried that, but again, unless you are using this in real time for performance, I don;t see what your issue is? Are you so rushed in your work that you need to do this "on the fly?" Even in my most severe deadlines I cannot imagine why I would want to do what you are describing. Maybe you can expatiate?

Why do you think MOTU should be ashamed if such a relatively obscure, and IMO, useless, feature doesn't work for you? Sort of like saying "my Ford overheats so much I can cook a pizza on the hood; Chevy should be ashamed, it only warms the rolls."

Mr_Clifford · Post by **Mr_Clifford** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 4:31 pm

On the other hand though. Pro Tools LE for a 'hard core audio app' lacks something so basic as automatic plugin delay compensation. If you use something like a PowerCore or UAD card you literally have to highlight all the audio on a track and manually shift it earlier to compensate for the latency. Professional? I think not.

I know it's all a ploy to get people to spend the $$$ and 'upgrade' to a HD system, but it hasn't worked on me, because I would rather export my whole session out of Pro Tools and mix it in DP just for that one feature.

Sorry that this was a bit off-topic. Just showing that Pro Tools isn't 'all that'.

Resonant Alien · Post by **Resonant Alien** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 5:35 pm

I just don't think that comparing DP (or Logic, Cubase, Live, Nuendo or eve PTLE) to PTHD/TDM is meaningful. With any native app, you are limited to the OS and CPU in your Mac/PC. With PTHD/TDM, you have $8000 PCI cards that are purpose-built for one thing - processing audio. Whether or not this or that feature works better in PT or not is moot - the point is that PT is a completely different beast. Like comparing a Ferarri to a Formula 1 race car. The Ferrari is fast, but you can still use it for lots of tasks...even picking up the groceries.....it has A/C and a radio. The F1 is extremely fast, but you can't drive it anywhere but on the racetrack and you'll be hot as hell while doing it....but it will drive without ever stalling.

Frodo · Post by **Frodo** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 5:52 pm

Yep, RA. That's why I mentioned that focusing on the strengths of each app is more constructive. There is always a limit, a missing feature, an odd workflow somewhere with all of these DAWs.

At the end of the day, for good or ill, HD transfer rates, bus speeds, RAM quantity/quality, and CPU speed remain the standard by which all else can be measured.

There must be something about DP's GUI that keeps us all using it. I guess the question remains as to whether there are enough features missing from DP to warrant leaving it behind.

Thing is, there really is no middle ground as we're all at the mercy of the developers.

But I can't yet say that I'm unhappy with the software at all myself. Sure, there are features I want to see, and some features are rather urgent to be honest. My biggest complaints these days have more to do with hardware-- from the computer to all interfaces (but that's a story for another time).

Frodo · Post by **Frodo** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 5:55 pm

Resonant Alien wrote:...The Ferrari is fast, but you can still use it for lots of tasks...even picking up the groceries.....it has A/C and a radio....

Don't give me any ideas!!

MOTUnation.com

ProTools MIDI advantage..Embarrassed for MOTU/AppleCore MIDI

ProTools MIDI advantage..Embarrassed for MOTU/AppleCore MIDI

Re: Terrible Pro Tools advantage..Embarrassed for MOTU