Damn those kicks...mixing with DP

[alexff]

Hi all.

Using the stock plugins of DP only...

I do R&B music. I need some tips on dealing with the bass - I'm in search of volume.

How do the pro engineers get the kick and bass to sit so well in the track, sound loud, yet not appear to compromise the rest of the mix by causing a decrease in attainable level, pumping etc?

My mixes?
I get real low final levels, as the kick is preventing things from going much further up the ladder.

I turn the kick down, EQ out those low frequencies, mulit-band compression, stem mixes, you name it. I've tried mixes where everything is "in it's place" EQ and panning wise. I pay extreme attention to sound selection in the arrangment process, choosing sounds that fit, and do not flood frequency ranges.

My mixes still end up sounding wimpy compared to most commercial records, even those pop-tastic ones which are mixed "in the box".

Annoyingly, the best mix I ever did I spent half an hour on...

Now I know the stock DP plugins aren't the greatest. But I had a mate come round tonight who brought a mix he'd done on a Tascam portastudio thing, mastered through an "old Yamaha compressor I brought for £40" Result? Clear, warm, loud.

I'm humbled with my expensive G5 rig. So the problem is probably my technique.

Everything I read online (and press) concerns mixing traditional band setups, not urban styles. Any tips from people doing the urban thing?
How do I tame the low end, make it sit with rest of the mix, and not compromise the final level?

I appreciate this could be an expansive subject - so quick tips here and there would be great.

Also, any essential gear recommendations? Are the DP plugs unsuitable for this style of music? (It's not just me being a clutz..)

Help me avoid that sinking sensation when I load my newly created masterpiece into itunes, play it, then switch to Beyonce, and reach for the volume level to turn down....

I would be happy to post an extract of a work in progess online if so required.

Many thanx.

[Spikey Horse]

The main tools for getting 'loud' mixes is to use compression, limiting, etc and any (or all) the DP dynamics plugs should be able get your mix steered into that direction no probs but the original bass (or whatever sound) will need to be suitable in the first place to get the desired R+B vibe.

How are you generating bass etc in the first place?

[chamelion]

A few quick thoughts with simplicity and economy in mind:

1. Drop your master fader down -3 to-5db at the outset.
2. Create an aux track called Backing Track and set that to -3 to -5db
(This will mean cranking up your monitoring, but you'll have heaps of headroom)
4. Put some kind of compressor on the kick & bass tracks (either from DP plugs, or look for some freeware compressors on MacMusic.com
5. Try putting Para Eq's rumble filter on the kick and bass (audio tracks)
6. Gradually add the other instruments. Because you have headroom, you should be able to keep your kick,, snare & bass "in your face".
7. If levels start getting hot on your aux, you can make a few adjustments in the knowledge that you still have spare headroom on your master fader.
8. As your mix starts to sound about right, keep your master fader well out of peak territory.
9. Bite the bullet, rob your kids' piggy banks, do whatever it takes to buy
Vintage Warmer for your final optimizer. Your mix will blow your head off with no clipping, pumping, or other nasty artifacts. You can easily get an extra kickass 6db or so out of your mix.
http://www.pspaudioware.com/indexen.htm ... ntage.html;

Hope this helps.

Cheers,

Geoff

[billf]

The stock plugins are okay.

What version of DP are you using? 4.6 has the Masterworks EQ, which I find to be excellent. You have to play with it to get the sound, but it's a nice plug.

The other thing is compression. I use Waves and PSP, but you can try the Masterworks compressor, select a preset close to what you're looking for, then start playing with adjustments.

With those two plugins on the bass, it should begin to stand out.

[alexff]

Cheers for the tips.

I'm using the latest DP (4.61) so have the lastest and greatest of DP plugs. Like a lot of forum users, I find the dynamics plug to be, well, of little use. Better is the comp section from the pre-amp plugin.

Bass sounds? Usually a sample of an electric bass for the soul type stuff, or the obligitary sine. Obviously the sine needs alot of bass rolled off...

EQ wise with regard to the kick and bass...
What's the rule on this? Should they share some frequencies in order to "gel" - or should they be separated with EQ?

[dave pine]

every song, in every differeny key, with every different bass sound, with every different bass line, with every different kick sound, with every different kick pattern, can present unlimited challenges, you'll find certain rules, but many different solutions.....good luck

[giles117]

Stock Plugs eh?

Well that is a hoot and a lot of work.

Invest in a UAD card and call me in the morning. LOL

Basically you need very good compression to keep the Kick and Bass under "control" and even. Gotta control those peaks, then build your mix around them.

Tone is very important as well. a nice eq, Master works is cool.to shape those 2 so they are full and leave space for the other portions of your Mix.

I Do R&B/Hip Hop/Jazz/Gospel and Pop.......Primarily......

[beubbo]

A few quick thoughts with simplicity and economy in mind:

1. Drop your master fader down -3 to-5db at the outset.
2. Create an aux track called Backing Track and set that to -3 to -5db
(This will mean cranking up your monitoring, but you'll have heaps of headroom)
4. Put some kind of compressor on the kick & bass tracks (either from DP plugs, or look for some freeware compressors on MacMusic.com
5. Try putting Para Eq's rumble filter on the kick and bass (audio tracks)
6. Gradually add the other instruments. Because you have headroom, you should be able to keep your kick,, snare & bass "in your face".
7. If levels start getting hot on your aux, you can make a few adjustments in the knowledge that you still have spare headroom on your master fader.
8. As your mix starts to sound about right, keep your master fader well out of peak territory.
9. Bite the bullet, rob your kids' piggy banks, do whatever it takes to buy
Vintage Warmer for your final optimizer. Your mix will blow your head off with no clipping, pumping, or other nasty artifacts. You can easily get an extra kickass 6db or so out of your mix.
http://www.pspaudioware.com/indexen.htm ... ntage.html;

Hope this helps.

Cheers,

Geoff

Hi Chamelion & thanks for sharing,

However isn't it much more simpler to leave the Master Fader at 0 dB and setting tracks & busses levels so that Master's level peaks at about -6 dB (by inserting a Trim plug-in on it for precise reading...)

Btw, there is also the well known trick with Bass & Kick tracks compressed/limited in the same bus so they can *breath* together. They also shouldn't share the same frequencies !

giles117 is also pretty damn right about the *very good compression* thing (UAD's 1176LN, LA2A, Fairchild 670...)

Hope this helps a little too...

[hearttimes]

you might want to check out the waves book on production which comeswith demos of their stuff. they cover that bass kick in several styles. even if you don't buy their plugs, the ideas are there.

[qo]

I've just received the book Mixing with your Mind and it's a real eye/ear opener. I have probably 10 books on mixing/recording, but this one is different. It's amazing, frankly. I'm only on page 57 but, even just barely into this book, my answer to your question is different today than it was yesterday.

From what I've read so far, you need to look into the following before even thinking about EQ, compression, etc.

1. Setup your monitor speakers correctly. Equilateral triangle is RARELY the best position. How do you setup your speakers? Not with mirrors as has been suggested in various forums I frequent. But, you will need a friend to carry the speaker around, and you will need to tie your friend to yourself with a piece of rope, and you will need to remove everything from the room, and you will need ONE speaker to run the test (not two). It's explained in the book...

2. Find the best place in the room (acoustically) for the floor tom (not the snare, not the bass drum), but the floor tom (it's explained why in the book). What's the best place? It's explained in the book Then setup the kit around that (there are multiple other tips about setting up the kit and mic'ing it that are new to me e.g. put your tape measure back in the toolbox, phase relationships between mics don't matter as much as other things, which he explains in detail).

3. Position the mics "at the tip of the flame" for any given sound source (it's explained in the book how to find the flame's tip).

Anyway, as I scanned through this book I found that on every page was advice that I'd never heard before. There's a lot in this book about attaining clarity in your mixes and the methods discussed (EQ, compression, etc) are not the same as those discussed in the other 10 or so books I have laying around. Doesn't mean this guy's right, but, if George Martin likes working with him, that's a pretty decent recommendation.

I have no relationship with the author, or the book, other than having just bought it and being (initially) blown away with its contents.

[chrispick]

Some tips that might help:

I'm assuming you're concentrating on mixdown using native DP plugs, not recording. Of course, the best sounds start before you get them into your computer. That aside --

1. Roll off the sub-low on your bass track, particularly those -40hz. Use DP's MW EQ with FFT turned on to see what the sub-lows are doing. Then, use you ear to shelf off those frequencies. A gradual-slope highpass usually works better. Turn off FFT when you're done

2. Roll off the EQ of other instruments so that their frequencies don't overlap with the kick and bass. Use MW EQ with FFT again. Again, start with your eyes, finish with your ears.

3. Think about doubling your bass line with another instrument mixed in to add some texture. It's an old school trick dating back to the '60s that a lot of people still use today. I do.

4. You can sometimes add a little "cut through" to a kick by hiking its higher harmonic frequencies, Again, use MW EQ with FFT. Use a hiked parametric (bell) with a wide Q and drag it around the higher frequencies. You'll usually find some harmonics that you can amp up.

5. Sometimes it helps to dip out kick frequencies between 250 - 400 hz. Go all ears on this one; it's definitely a taste thing.

6. I don't think DP's stock compressors get the job done well enough. For an inexpensive option, look into Wave Arts TrackPlug. It's a channel strip plug with combined EQ, gate and compressors. It ships with numerous bass/ kick settings. It's also CPU-light.

7. For mastering your track, use MW Limiter in you stereo master out, following the DP manual's instructions (it walks you through it). This will give your track the overall volume push I think you might be missing.

Finally, this best way to make sure yoru bass /kick track have definition is to arrange your composition so that other instruments don't step on them (unless, as I stated above, those instruments are specifically doubling a bass part).

Hopes this helps.

[markwayne]

What are you using for monitors? Hearing the low end well is the first step in sorting it out.

Now, assuming that you have an accurate picture of the low end in front of your ears, all of the advice given so far is sound.

Not that it matters, but here's how I mix old-school R&B. I tend to solo the kick and bass first and be VERY critical about the performance. If you have any slop in these tracks, no amount of tweaking will make the tune sound tight. Assuming the performances are good. I would pick a fairly low eq point and pull this range back on the bass. I then pick a spot a bit higher and pull that out of the kick track. What you are trying to do is give each instrument a piece of the pie. I try to guard against using eq to add a lot of bass. If the tracks just don't seem to have enough omph, there are a couple of great Waves plugs such as Ren Bass that work much better than adding low end. I would also compress the snot (technical term) out of all low end tracks. Once they are separated by frequency, putting the kick and bass on the same bus is a good trick. However, this really grew more out of a shortage of good compressors lying around at mix down in the long-ago, analog days. Add in the other drum tracks slowly listening for any phase problems and pulling the same frequencies out of the new tracks to keep those holes for your kick and bass. You'll know when you are getting somewhere cause the track should groove with no other instruments in the mix.

Once you get to this point, the rest of the mix should go much faster. A good multi-band comp can be used on the final two track to give you that extra bit of volume. But be sure to save the project without the multi-band in case you get a chance to have it mastered by a pro.

just my opinion,
there are no rules,
have fun,
Wayne

[David Polich]

Well I had a bad trip to the mastering house about eight days ago. I had used PSP Vintage Warmer Waves and Channel Strip EQ's, and PSP StereoPack Compressors to "beef up the bass and kicks in the mixes for my band's CD.

At the mastering session, through Sonic Solutions, into a 50 grand audiphile playback system with subs, in a tuned room - my mixes were a muddy, boomy mess! The engineer "suggested" I go home and remix, which I did.
This time I took all the extra EQ of the electric basses, compressed the basses to make them tighter and smaller and tuck them under the kicks. Knocked back most of the EQ low boosts from the kicks and took the PSP comps off the kicks as well. Long story short, I had to basically do all the mixes over.

Next trip to the mastering house, BIG difference. Each song took about fifteen minutes to master. The engineer said she had never had to do so little to mixes ever.

Moral of the story - forget about trying to make everything deep and loud with plug-ins, etc. Go for balance. Check your mix against CD tracks at the same level (same level - very important). Unless you have subwoofers and top-notch monitors, you won't hear all that extra low end. Make sure you're not just imagining the low end on your commercial CD's to be that huge. Adding too much low end is probably the number one mistake home studio recordists make.

To make the bass and kick stand out more, try rolling off low end on the other instruments - 315Hz is the magic number. Start by rolling off there - on guitars, vocals, keyboards, anything other than kick drums and basses. Adjust to taste, sometimes you can roll off at a lower frequency, or a higher one. You might be surprised at how much low end "comes back" on your bass and kicks when you roll off the lows on the other tracks.

[chrispick]

Moral of the story - forget about trying to make everything deep and loud with plug-ins, etc. Go for balance. Check your mix against CD tracks at the same level (same level - very important). Unless you have subwoofers and top-notch monitors, you won't hear all that extra low end. Make sure you're not just imagining the low end on your commercial CD's to be that huge. Adding too much low end is probably the number one mistake home studio recordists make.

To make the bass and kick stand out more, try rolling off low end on the other instruments - 315Hz is the magic number. Start by rolling off there - on guitars, vocals, keyboards, anything other than kick drums and basses. Adjust to taste, sometimes you can roll off at a lower frequency, or a higher one. You might be surprised at how much low end "comes back" on your bass and kicks when you roll off the lows on the other tracks.

I totally agree with all of this.

It kind of reiterates what I wrote re: keeping instrument frequencies from stepping on each other.

The only thing I'd re-emphasize: roll off any sub-lows on bass and kick starting below 40hz. These are the rumble frequencies and they can throw a lot of mud into the mix.

Oh, and finally -- one last trick that I find works wonders for balance issues: Try mixing in mono. If you can get it to sound clear and distinct as a monaural mix, you'll be amazed by how well that translates back to stereo. Plus, it lets you know really quickly what frequencies are stepping on other because of what gets "phase-out weak."