audio drop outs - RESOLVED

[Jim]

I have another thread on a separate issue with my new Mini M4 Pro and my QNAP NAS. This is my second problem that I think may be related to the storage (the QNAP):

When playing back some Project Sequences, all audio drops out for a fraction of a second about every five seconds.

This doesn't occur on all my Projects. I loaded up a few with high track counts - to me, that's 8 or more VIs and my standard 10 audio tracks for drums, and don't hear the drop outs.

This happens whether I'm attached to the NAS via TB or 10 Gbe. Disk speed shouldn't be the cause, as I'm getting over 500 MB/s over 10 Gbe and over 1000 MB/s with the TB connection, according to BlackMagic Disk Speed Test.

I hooked up a USB-C flash drive on which Speed Test reports 500 MB/s reads, and still getting the drop outs.

I reinstalled DP 11.33, and launched with the option and shift keys pressed. No help.

I don't experienced this with my Intel MacPro or my Intel Mac Mini.

The M4 came with Sequoia 15.1 installed.

[Jim]

I can add after opening more old Projects and playing them that these drop outs are happening on Sequences with only two VIs playing, so that can rule out any spiking of the CPU or over-loading the storage for audio files.

I've also notice the wiper scrolls continuously, even during the audio dropouts. Also, the Master Fader level indicators drop out with the audio dropping out.

I tried toggling the MAS state off and on, and that didn't help.

I tried running DP under Rosetta. No help.

Changing the Buffer size has no effect.

[HCMarkus]

Man, that isn't fun.

I've never experienced anything like that, but I'm running an M1 Mac Studio. I wonder any other M4 users are having similar issues?

Have you observed Apple's Activity Monitor while running DP? Maybe you will see spikes of some kind or another that are interfering with audio playback.

[Jim]

Have you observed Apple's Activity Monitor while running DP? Maybe you will see spikes of some kind or another that are interfering with audio playback.

Good suggestion, Mark. Thank you. I just tried it, and didn't see any activity that suggests a CPU anomaly.

However, I just tried mounting a SAS SCSI RAID over 10 Gbe (500-600 MB/s i/o speeds), and am seeing the same issue of audio dropouts and an inability to record audio or save over an existing project file.

This appears to be a smoking gun pointing to a bug in DP and/or incompatibility using DP on a shared drive over ethernet.

That is, unless anybody can testify otherwise. Until then, that's my hypothesis.

[jesus chrysler]

Possibly a plugin nagging you bc you forgot to license it on the new system?

[Jim]

Possibly a plugin nagging you bc you forgot to license it on the new system?

I haven't tried every single plug-in I have (because I have hundreds), but the ones I'm using on the Sequences with the audio drop-outs are licensed and functioning.

Also, as I just wrote, I tried mounting a server over ethernet with my older, very stable MacPro system, and the audio dropouts and inability to save manifested on that system.

So far, the common factor is the shared disk over ethernet.

Thanks for the suggestion, though.

[Michael Canavan]

The elephant in the room is your NAS system. Here's the first issue, playing back streaming audio files from a DAW is a lot different than playing back a single AIFF file or a movie, or transferring files. I thought really hard about setting up a NAS system to playback and store DP songs, but I just couldn't justify the expense on a system that might be not suited for fast access to multiple relatively speaking small audio files. I would hazard a guess that the instant access time to the files is much much slower through a NAS than from an external drive in a USB 3 or 4 enclosure. File transfer once that initial connecion is made might be super fast, but the initial connection is IMO what's causing the glitches.

You can test this super easy, transfer a song that's glitching to the Mac or to an external USB3 or above drive in a regular enclosure and see if the problems persist. One of the issues with NAS that I did not want to test by buying a whole system was whether essentially streaming files from what is another computer to the Mac would result in weird behavior inside a DAW like DP.

All that said, it might be possible to tweak settings in Mac OS or the NAS to get it working, I just didn't find anything when I was looking at using a NAS as a central song file device,

[Jim]

The elephant in the room is your NAS system. Here's the first issue, playing back streaming audio files from a DAW is a lot different than playing back a single AIFF file or a movie, or transferring files.

I don't blame you if you haven't read the entire thread, but I've been able to get DaVinci Resolve to playback just fine and save over existing files over the NAS on a 10 Gbe network.

NLEs use even more resources than DAWs do, since a DAW is essentially the audio component. Add the need to play compressed video files (like H.264, AVC, MXF, and so on), and the whole NLE system needs a lot of juice to play smoothly.

I'm able to grab my CTI in Resolve and whip it back and forth on a Timeline with multiple audio tracks and video layers and not see any frames dropping or lags. It looks pretty much like when I've used my SAS DAS RAID. I'm getting around or over 2000 MegaBYTES/second I/o, according to BMD Disk Speed Test.

So, while a little lag is to be expected on a NAS vs. DAS, once the streaming starts, the playback should be smooth. DAWs and NLEs should be buffering audio and video prior to their current position in a file (or sequence of files), eliminating dropouts. I've got plenty of available RAM (64 GB), and I've tried changing the buffer settings between 512 and 4096 with no apparent change in the dropout situation.

I also tried your suggestion (yesterday) of transferring a few DP projects to a USB SSD drive (around 900 MB/s i/o), and there were no Save error messages, but there were audio dropouts.

So, that MAY rule out my ethernet theory, and point to corruption in the Project file (.dpdoc). But, I tried the old start New Project and Load the problem Project, which has worked well in the past to fix project corruption, but I'm still getting the dropouts at regular intervals.

I also just tried deleting every track except for one VI, played the Sequence, and it's still dropping out audio. That exonerates any i/o / streaming issues, and points to some issue with either the MOTU Audio System (MAS) OR corruption in the Project file. Since I can play a variety of other Projects with no audio dropouts, that seems to exonerate the MAS, and implicate an issue in the .dpdoc, unless anybody else has a better hypothesis.

The regular frequency of the audio dropping out may be telling me something, but what that is is eluding me.

[Michael Canavan]

Since I can play a variety of other Projects with no audio dropouts, that seems to exonerate the MAS, and implicate an issue in the .dpdoc, unless anybody else has a better hypothesis.

I mean you have your answer right there, I'm not thrilled at the concept of a corrupted Project, but it is what it is. I was under the impression it was happening on multiple DP projects, but if it's just one....

[HCMarkus]

Since I can play a variety of other Projects with no audio dropouts, that seems to exonerate the MAS, and implicate an issue in the .dpdoc, unless anybody else has a better hypothesis.

I mean you have your answer right there, I'm not thrilled at the concept of a corrupted Project, but it is what it is. I was under the impression it was happening on multiple DP projects, but if it's just one....

Have you tried Loading the problem DP project into a new empty project?

[Jim]

I mean you have your answer right there, I'm not thrilled at the concept of a corrupted Project, but it is what it is. I was under the impression it was happening on multiple DP projects, but if it's just one....

It is happening on multiple projects, just not all of them. I was having no issues like this on my MacPro7,1 connected by DAS to a SAS RAID. The dropouts started with my transition to the Mini M4 opening cloned files on what was my backup RAID.

I have over 400 DP Projects on my systems. I've only begun to learn how many Projects are affected. So far, I've found about four that are affected, and about ten that are not. Many miles to go before I sleep.

Yes, I did try starting a New Project and using Load with the problem Sequence. No luck. In the past, that's been an effective way to salvage a corrupted Project file.

[Michael Canavan]

I have over 400 DP Projects on my systems. I've only begun to learn how many Projects are affected. So far, I've found about four that are affected, and about ten that are not. Many miles to go before I sleep.

So there were changes to the audio system under Sequoia, I'm starting to think the issue isn't "corrupted" DP files, it's some incompatibility issue. If they were not corrupted on non Sequoia, apple silicon macs then it's very likely not the DP project files.

Forgive me if you've already gone over these, but updating and making sure your audio and MIDI interface drivers are Sequoia compatible, looking into any third party software you have running in the background and other things of this nature is where I would be going. Do these dropouts always occur in the same spot? if not then that again points at software compatibility issues. Unfortunately for me I have a few plugins for instance that are not Sequoia ready and they cause issues etc.

[Jim]

So there were changes to the audio system under Sequoia, I'm starting to think the issue isn't "corrupted" DP files, it's some incompatibility issue. If they were not corrupted on non Sequoia, apple silicon macs then it's very likely not the DP project files.

Forgive me if you've already gone over these, but updating and making sure your audio and MIDI interface drivers are Sequoia compatible, looking into any third party software you have running in the background and other things of this nature is where I would be going. Do these dropouts always occur in the same spot? if not then that again points at software compatibility issues. Unfortunately for me I have a few plugins for instance that are not Sequoia ready and they cause issues etc.

Jumping Jehoshaphat, I think you are onto something here! IDK why it didn't occur to me to suspect Sequoia. I'm not even that much of an Apple fanboy to think they can do no wrong. It seems obvious to me, now.

The drivers for my interfaces are built into the Mac OS. The Focusrite interfaces I use don't require extra drivers, but they do have an app to control their settings.

I tried your suggestion of quitting all apps except for DP, and that didn't help.

I just played one of my problem Sequences on my 2018 Mac Mini setup, and the audio's not dropping out. It's running Sonoma. That seems to rule out file corruption.

I just tried something else: I bounced my problem Sequence, and the dropouts are in the bounced file.

Thank you, Michael, for the slap to the side of the head. Although it doesn't solve my issue, it informs me that the fix may be out of my hands. Hopefully Apple will do the right thing. The upgrade to 15.2 I did yesterday didn't help. I don't trust any Mac OS younger than x.4. This may be an example of why.

I would have immediately downgraded my M4 to Sonoma if I thought it was possible, but I read here on MOTUNATION that it isn't. So, I guess I'm stuck with this random issue until Apple fixes it. I'll dig around here to see if there are other incompatibilities with Sequoia.

I can mix on my other Intel systems in the meantime if need be. This is the one issue I've found so far that's keeping me from mothballing my MacPro.

And, maybe this will serve as a caveat to anybody else considering buying a new M4 Mini.

[HCMarkus]

Jumping Jehoshaphat, I think you are onto something here! IDK why it didn't occur to me to suspect Sequoia. I'm not even that much of an Apple fanboy to think they can do no wrong. It seems obvious to me, now.

Sorry to pour cold water on the idea, but I am not sure Sequoia is the problem here...

viewtopic.php?t=74421&hilit=sequoia

This thread seems to show some not having issues. No M4s that I noted, however.

[Michael Canavan]

The drivers for my interfaces are built into the Mac OS. The Focusrite interfaces I use don't require extra drivers, but they do have an app to control their settings.

Ugh, this could be it right here, Rogue Ameba the makers of Audio Hijack among other Mac OS audio tools said they were excited about changes to Sequoia that were of benefit to their apps. So most likely the Focusrite interfaces if they're more than a few in/outs do have a driver that installed with the app. Mac OS has been doing a "driverkit" driver that you can read about on RME's site if you want, it's removing drivers and audio interfaces further from the kernel.

So that's the obvious test, run your projects from the built in audio and see if they skip when listening from the headphone out.