828mk3 hybrid ADAT bank B ticking noise

[Mythh]

Hi, new member here—this forum has been a great learning resource, so first off thanks! Now I’ve encountered my first issue worth posting about.

I have an 828mk3 hybrid that’s been great. I use it via USB with a M1-Pro MacBook Pro on Ventura. I've successfully expanded it with an 8Pre (FW) slaved to ADAT bank A, as well as a little Focusrite Saffire Pro 14 hooked up to the SPDIF in. When I added the Saffire14 I changed the 828's clock setting from Internal to SPDIF. No issues.

I wanted another 8 preamps, so I got a Saffire Pro 40, which I confirmed is configured correctly to work in standalone/expander mode and set to right sample rate (48khz). I hooked it up to both In/Out of the 828's ADAT bank B. Set up this way, I do get signal coming through the Saffire into my DAW (which is Reaper, just in case that’s relevant). Problem is, there’s also a steady, metronomic tick of white noise on all 8 ADAT B channels when armed to record. Not earsplitting or anything, but audible and annoying. All the 828's other channels, analog and digital, still work fine.

Everything I’ve read suggests a clocking issue, so I triple-checked settings across all devices. Everything seemed correct: all rates at 48khz; 828 clock source set to SPDIF (so Saffire14 acting as master), and 8pre and Saffire 40 both slaved to 828 via ADAT (connected with two cables each, In and Out). As far as I can tell, the 828 manual suggests this setup should work. But I thought maybe the SPDIF clock wasn't distributing to both ADAT banks, so I removed the Saffire14 from the setup altogether and reset 828 clock source to Internal. No luck--ADAT B inputs all still clicking.

Next I tried hooking up just the Saffire40 to the 828's ADAT bank A. This worked fine. But then adding the 8pre to bank B, I got the ticking through the 8pre instead. So, it appears the problem is with the 828's ADAT bank B itself, not any of the expander units (or cables; I swapped those around and they all work fine).

I did find an old thread where a couple Windows users had what seems to be the same issue: viewtopic.php?t=46938. But the only solution mentioned there is to use two ADAT cables per expander unit and ensure the master-slave assignments are correct, which I've already done. Am I missing something obvious?? Could there be some other clock setting or maybe something in Cuemix that could be causing this? Or should I just assume the second ADAT bank is broken?

[bayswater]

For what it’s worth, I had a similar problem with the 828-3 FW, using ADAT to connect it to a 2408-2, and later a Scarlett 18i8, from the day I bought them. In my case it was usually channel 7 in Bank B. I never solved it and like you attributed it to clocking errors.

[mikehalloran]

In a couple or more manuals, MOTU recommends an external clock when trying to sync three or more interfaces.

[mothra]

What Mike said. ADAT sync has always been a little finicky, and with 2 banks of it, eeeeek. No trouble with 24 in and out with my 828x, but my Ferrofish Pulse 16 is the word clock master running everything.

Im kind of surprised MOTU didn't include it on the 8Pre since it was made to pair with the 828 for the most part.

[HCMarkus]

No external clock here, but I have always used the Word Clock I/O on my interfaces for clocking, with the master being whichever interface is connected to the computer.

Obviously, this is only possible when all devices offer WC connections.

[Mythh]

Thanks for all the responses! That’s too bad that it sounds like it’s a common problem with ADAT syncing in general. I’d imagine there would be lots of people trying to expand an 828 with two 8pres (which as mentioned don’t have wordclock), so it’s surprising that having two ADAT-slaved devices wouldn’t be rock solid.

Anyone having better luck with this kind of setup? Out of curiosity, would the 828es or another AVB interface with multiple ADAT banks, or the newest-gen 828, potentially work better with multiple ADAT-slaved expanders?

I guess next I can try syncing the Saffire40 to wordclock from the 828, while still keeping the 8Pre synced via the two-cable ADAT connection. If the 828 is set to Internal, can it send master clock signal out via ADAT (bank A to the 8Pre) and wordclock (to the Saffire) at the same time?
*never mind, forgot Saffire doesn’t have word clock either. But still sort of curious if that kind of dual setup might work with an expander that does have word in?

[bayswater]

I connected the 2408 to the 828 and used wordclock for timing, and that didn’t remove the timing errors completely. I never even tried syncing via ADAT.

Did you try recording some test signals to see what you get? In my case it was a click every 2 or 3 minutes on one channel. Annoying but easily fixed.

[Mythh]

I did record some tests, I get a click about every two seconds, on all eight ADAT bank B input channels. There’s a slight delay in the noise across the channels. The ticks aren't super loud, but enough to make recordings unusable.

[Mythh]

I remembered I do have a 2408mk2 laying around, so I can try out the theory of syncing a second ADAT expander to the 828 via wordclock…

[bayswater]

Nertz. Too bad. These converters seem to offer a lot when you look at the configuration, but maybe not so much when you actually use them. Maybe you'll get better results if you put a wordclock connection in place.

[Mythh]

This is late, but figured I'd follow up in case it's useful for anyone in the future.

I did finally try running the 2408mkII as the second ADAT expander off the 828mk3 Hybrid. But I didn't end up needing to try word clock--I first tested it clocked via the ADAT connection itself (two cable method), and it worked! No regular clicks like I had with the Focusrite. (I did have a couple isolated instances of white noise bursts when first changing between the 2408's inputs in my DAW to test them, but that seemed to clear up on its own and I was able to record successfully from all 8 added analog ins.)

I also again tested the 8pre and Saffire 40 combo, this time with everything at 44.1 sample rate instead of 48. No luck though. Either device works fine as a single expander, but when both are connected I still get the rhythmic ticking. So my wild-guess theory is maybe there's some difference in clocking between the two manufacturers' hardware? No idea if something like a chip difference could actually have that kind of effect, though.

Would be interesting to someday try two 8pres and see if I get the same issue or not... or I'd still be curious to hear if others are doing that successfully with any generation 828. The extra line ins are good enough for me for now, but would be nice to get extra preamps up and running instead!

[HCMarkus]

The extra line ins are good enough for me for now, but would be nice to get extra preamps up and running instead!

'tis the universe telling you that you need some boutique external mic preamps.

[Mythh]

Ugh, I guess I jinxed myself by posting my months-later followup. The ticking returned when trying to run both ADAT banks at once (8pre and 2408mkII). So my theory about different manufacturers hardware is out.

I was about to buy a word clock cable to see if that would indeed better sync the 2408 with the 828, while also running the 8pre synced via ADAT. I think in theory this might work, though I'm still unsure if having one expander synced via word clock and another via ADAT is "allowed." I may still get the cable and test this eventually... BUT:

...I found an alternative for the meantime, which actually gives me even more ins/outs. I'd totally forgotten about aggregate devices! I'm now running the 828mk3 expanded with the 8pre via ADAT (and the smaller Saffire via SPDIF) into one usb port, and my Ultralite mk4 expanded with the Saffire Pro 40 via ADAT into another usb port. So 22 preamps and 14 line ins. All working with no clocking problems or any other issues!!


*Another workaround idea I considered, and may try to test someday, would be to connect the 828 by Firewire (using both TB adapters) instead of usb, and daisy chain the 8pre via FW instead of ADAT. Then use just the Saffire 40 over ADAT. From what I've gathered combing through other threads, that might be workable to get 16 additional preamps while using just one ADAT bank. Advantage there would be I'd get the Ultralite back as my mobile interface rather than racked up with everything else...

Anyway, just noting all this here in case it's useful for anyone else down the road. Again, I really appreciate all the great info I've found on here myself--thanks!

[Mythh]

The extra line ins are good enough for me for now, but would be nice to get extra preamps up and running instead!

'tis the universe telling you that you need some boutique external mic preamps.

This may just be my next step now that I've "solved" this problem...

[EMRR]

ADAT does not do sync on it's own, definitely the problem. Has to have WC also. You can set a device receiving from one ADAT to resolve sync from the incoming signal, but multiple incoming ADAT will be trying to resolve to different things.