Baffled, Bothered, and Bewildered by MIDI Issue -- Help!

[Babz]

This is a tough one, folks. Those who know me, know that I can usually suss these things out, but this one has had me banging my head for several days now.

Background:
For nearly 20 years, I have used the same MIDI keyboard as my main controller, a Roland XP-80. I have it hooked up to a MTP-AV usb MIDI interface with MIDI in and out cables. I turn Local off on the XP-80 and have DP's MIDI Patch Thru set to "Auto channelize", thus:




This allows me to sequence internal MIDI keyboard sounds using DP without getting note doubling etc. from looped back MIDI. All very straightforward, standard procedure.

Enter Alesis QS7.1:
My trusty XP-80 began to develop "senior" issues, so I had to seek out a replacement. I tried a brand new latest/greatest ROMpler for awhile (a Yamaha MOXF6), but soon found that I couldn't get used to only 61 keys, so I picked up something more like the XP-80, an Alesis QS7.1 (76-note ROMpler of similar vintage, from the late 90s).

The thing is, the Alesis, doesn't have a plain old "Local Off" setting like I'm used to. It has a mode called "OUT 01 through OUT 16", which is their equivalent of Local Off. It is described like this in the manual:



Here's the problem:
With the Alesis QS7.1 keyboard set to this mode and auto channelize on in DP, all seems to work as it should, just like it has been with the Roland. I record enable a track, play notes. I do not get phasing or note doubling. All good.

But as soon as I hit Play or Record in DP, the sound of the keyboard changes. It seems to get louder and sounds all phasey (as if notes are doubling). It remains in this state even when the transport is stopped. If I turn the keyboard on and off, it resets and the doubling/phasing goes away.

If I hit play or record with the track's Play Enable muted, I don't get the doubling. But as soon as I play enable the track and hit Play, I get the issue.

All is fine controlling other external sound modules or soft synths, but I can't seem to sequence using the internal sounds of the Alesis without this problem.

Also I believe I had a similar problem with the Yamaha MOXF6 (but I can't be sure, because I no longer have that unit to test with). The Yamaha also did not have a simple "Local Off" setting, but instead had this "DAW control" mode.

Has anyone ever run across a problem like this? Anyone familiar with using an Alesis keyboard with DP? Anybody have any ideas on how to solve or troubleshoot this problem? I've tried numerous steps, studied the Alesis manual in detail, but I'm pretty much stumped at this point.

Any ideas or suggestions much appreciated.

Best,
Babz

[Babz]

If you need more details, here is the full discussion of the various keyboard modes from the Alesis QS7.1 manual.

[Shooshie]

Have you tried turning off "Sync Recorded MIDI to Patch Thru?"

Shooshie

[Babz]

Have you tried turning off "Sync Recorded MIDI to Patch Thru?"

Shooshie

Yes. No joy. But thanks for any suggestions.

[Babz]

It is as if hitting Play in DP sends out some data (Sysex? Mode change? Something?) that is turning local back on. The setting doesn't change on the Alesis display, but something must be changing internally.

I thought maybe the MIDI device definitions in Audio MIDI Setup contained some SysEx string that might be causing the problem. I looked at the .midnam text file and there is indeed some Sysex command in the code:

<DeviceModeEnable>
<MIDICommands>
<SysEx> F0 00 00 0E 0E 10 00 00 02 01 F7</SysEx>
</MIDICommands>

However, I then removed the device from Audio MIDI Setup and created a new Generic MIDI device and tested in DP, and I still have the problem, so I doubt that SysEx is the source of the problem.

But it is definitely something coming from DP, because I don't get the problem when using Ableton Live.

How can I find out what MIDI is being sent out from DP upon playback? I downloaded the utility called "MIDI Monitor" (and also tried looking at the MIDI Monitor window in DP). Neither shows anything being sent when hitting Play. (Oh, and BTW, I have turned off Automation on all tracks and it makes no difference.)

You see why this is such a baffling problem?

I finally broke down and tried the last resort (calling MOTU Tech Support ) but apparently they are closed on Columbus Day! Maybe tomorrow. (sigh)

Babz

[SMS]

I’d use a utility like MIDI Pipe to actually see what’s getting sent to the Alesis. Maybe the transport start is doing something weird…

edit- oops I see you tried MIDI monitor. How about MTC? Have you tried turning that off? Or what's that other thing- SPP (song position pointer?)

Does the led flash on the out port of the MIDI interface when you hit play?

You might try starting DP, THEN plug the Alesis in- would tell you if it's the Start action that's causing the issue or just the fact that it's playing....

[Babz]

OK, some progress!

My brilliant MOTU genius friend, Frank Dickinson, suggested I try the Clockworks app with my MTP (something I haven't used since like the mid 90s). It allows you to filter certain data being sent out. First I tried filtering SysEx and that did nothing, but then I tried filtering controllers, like this:



And that stopped the problem!

(Note: Cable 4 is the one to which the Alesis is connected).

So it seems that on playback, some controller information is being sent out from DP and this is somehow affecting the Alesis. What this controller is, and why it only happens in DP and not other DAWs is a mystery still, but I'm making progress.

This is at best a workaround for now, since I don't want to filter all controller information. Now, how do I figure out what controller is being sent and how to stop it?

Best,
Babz

[SMS]

Try MIDI Pipe

http://www.subtlesoft.square7.net/MidiPipe.html

I think it will reveal any data sent

Just used it with an empty DP track, all I see is CC7 and CC10

[Shooshie]

You've GOT to find out which controller is doing that. My curiosity is overwhelming at this point. I need to know WHY it's causing that problem.

I used to have a similar problem with my Kurzweil and the Yamaha keyboards before that. But disabling "Sync Recorded MIDI..." fixed it. This, however, seems to be a different kind of thing, and that has no effect upon it. But what is a controller doing that could use this problem.

Is the controller sent by DP? Or is it mirrored from the Alesis to DP and back? This could be helpful to know.

Shooshie

[Babz]

Is the controller sent by DP? Or is it mirrored from the Alesis to DP and back? This could be helpful to know.

Shooshie

I thought it might be coming from the Alesis. It has these 4 Controller Sliders A, B, C, D, Prime suspects. But if I set Clockworks to Mute Controllers on Input, I still get the problem. However, setting it to Mute Controllers on Output, makes the issue go away. This, coupled with the fact that it doesn't happen with Ableton Live, suggests that something is getting sent out from DP. But what?

The mystery continues...

Babz

[Babz]

Try MIDI Pipe

http://www.subtlesoft.square7.net/MidiPipe.html

I think it will reveal any data sent

Just used it with an empty DP track, all I see is CC7 and CC10

Thanks for the suggestion. I'm finding MidiPipe less than intuitive. I was able to set up a "pipe" with MIDI In set to MTP-AV Port 4 (the Alesis's input), then "A List" (which apparently displays MIDI data), then MIDI Out set to MTP AV All Cables. If I play notes on the Alesis, MidiPipe will display them, but I can't get it to display anything coming from DP, even if I write MIDI volume automation into a track.

I'm all ears, if you have any tips on how I might use MidiPipe to display MIDI cc messages coming from DP, but I can't figure it out.

Best,
Babz

[Shooshie]

MIDI Monitor is probably your best bet for watching MIDI from all sources, including DP. Not all MIDI monitor-type software picks up the stuff coming straight from a DAW.

Shooshie

[terrybritton]

IF you can find a manual posessing these pages, the answer is likely there:

Appendix B: MIDI Supplement...............................169
MIDI Basics..............................................169
MIDI Hardware.....................................................169
MIDI Message Basics.....................................................170
Channel Messages: Mode Messages............................................170
Channel Messages: Voice Messages...............................170
Continuous Controllers List...............................................171
System Common Messages..............................................172
General MIDI.........................................................172
MIDI Implementation Chart...........................................174
Appendix C: Parameters Index.........................................175
Program Edit Parameters....................................175
Mix Edit Parameters.......................................177

Unfortunately, none of the online versions have the appendix included.

I will keep looking - meanwhile track down exactly what those message numbers and values are using a more thorough MIDI monitor, I suppose.

Terry

[terrybritton]

Ahhh - found one!

Start here, I suppose:

https://www.manualshelf.com/manual/ales ... e-132.html

All this is unhelpful if you cannot see the numbers being sent, but with this info you can look up what the controllers are meant to do. I did not see some of the items there, though (RPN's and NRPN's) but I go as blind as anyone else when first looking at these charts!

Terry

[SMS]

Here's how I'm able to do it...

With DP running,

• open MidiPipe
• drag a "MIDI In" from the Tools panel on the left to the "Pipes" panel on the right
• with the MIDI In selected in the Pipes panel, use the MIDI Input drop down menu below to select "MidiPipe Input 1"
• drag an "AList" from the Tools panel to below the MIDI input in the Pipes panel
• select that AList in the Pipes panel- below appears the area where the data will appear along with filters that can be enabled/disabled- you can also double-click the AList entry to open it in it's own window

in DP:

• route a MIDI track to "MidiPipe Input 1"
• start DP- any data in the track (along with your mystery controller data, we hope) will be displayed in the List panel or window

MidiPipe can be used to route, filter, reassign, etc. MIDI data. Very useful utility.

Let us know what you learn