Bitten by ANOTHER Takes/Comp Tool-related bug....

[FMiguelez]

Sorry to be the bearer of yet another bad new, but I discovered, the hard way, yet ANOTHER BIG PROBLEM with the current behaviour of Takes and its related Comp tool in DP 9.02.

So I have lots of tracks with lots of takes. After I was painstakingly forced to keep Showing and Hiding takes, to be able to select them and move them along with everything else for my edits, I managed to get everything back into sync.

BUT THEN, during the mixing stage, I decided I still wanted to tweak a couple of rallentandos in the song (for which I had previously created a tempo map, as described above and in my other "Takes" thread).

Easy, right? Simply edit the tempo points and voila (splitting SBs before and after the tempo changes is almost always a required "unnecessary necessity" as well)...

Well, if you do so, you must know that all your takes, including the Comped takes, will transform into an unfixable Franskenstanian monstrosity if you want to use them again. Every CompTool-related edit you did will be lost.
This happens if you set the tracks locked and unlocked previous to the changes. I tried it both ways.
Oh, and immediately UNDOING a change, will NOT fix them either.

I don´t have an image host ATM, but all the Comp Tool edits appear now where there are NO soundbites. And, where there are soundbites, there won't be any Comp Tool edits

So Takes don't only not move when one makes an ALL TIME Range Selection along with the rest of the audio, but they WILL NOT respond to Conductor Track changes, such as Tempo, Inserted Measures, snipped meausres or anything else.

This is unforgivable. The Conductor track IS the MASTER keeper of the timing of the whole project! How can it ignore the takes? Under what logic?
Why would I want to lose sync with all my takes if I make a tempo change or if I insert a measure or if I change a measure from 4/4 to 6/4???

Basically, they're dumb and static. They remain behind unless you show them all and select them every time you need to make a move.

So FORGET about changing tempo or inserting measures if you don't want to not only lose the sync to your main tracks, but also losing your Comp Tool edits. As mentioned above, they turn into non-recognisable patterns of pink lines with unrelated "shades" of selections (your former perfect Takes).

And the behaviour for this in CLOSED folders with SBs is not any better. I suspect the same happens with MIDI takes.

This is pretty bad... I'm sorry, but it is a TERRIBLE design flaw!

All we need is a preference to manage DP's Takes behaviour.
I really think fixing this is more urgent than other things MOTU is apparently working on ATM.
I mean, try explaining this to your client, who is breathing down your neck, and wondering why you've just lost ALL the comped takes that took you time to do, which she paid for.

---> Yes. Obviously I was able to recover the Comped Takes from my numerous previous saved versions, but then all the music edits, tempo changes, etc., would be lost. It's one or the other. So one must keep jumping from different saved versions to achieve different things. You know, since one has time to kill...

[Guitar Gaz]

Not a great state of affairs - however I must admit I stopped using the Comp Tool ages ago as I always found it fiddly and rigid in application.

I now turn all takes into tracks, set up a new comp audio track, and then I move stuff from the various takes into the comp track by creating new soundbytes of the required section of the take (using snap to grid for moving so it keeps the same relative position in the time of the track) - but you can of course move bits from the take to a different position in the comp track (say a repeat of the section) still using snap to grid to keep the relative position in the track. You can turn snap off to create the soundbyte of course but its best to keep snap when you move the soundbyte.

I am so used to using this method that I do it much quicker than using the Comp Tool. So I would try and stop using Comp if I were you - once you have moved all the snippets of takes into the comp track, you can then get the takes left to re-absorb in a track if you need them for further reference. It's such an easy way of working that it makes the Comp Tool seem clumsy and rigid.

[FMiguelez]

Yes.

I'm beginning to accept the idea that, in the future, I will have to turn takes into tracks whenever I need to make any edits, tempo changes, etc., like you do, while MOTU fixes this mess (hopefully they'll realize the need to add a set of preferences to be able to deal with takes AND FOLDERS effectively).

I wonder, though, what would happen to comped tracks/takes that get turned into tracks? Would the Comp Tool lose its edits? I'll try it when I have time to check it, just for giggles, but I think I can guess what the answer will be (I won't like it).

I must add that the reason this annoys me so much is because I really LOVE DP's Comping features!
They are amazing, but they just need to be more controllable and work in a unified fashion with the whole program, especially regarding the Conductor Track changes. THEN they would make it the BEST comp tool of any other DAW ever!

[Guitar Gaz]

9.1 is out - doesn't say this bug is fixed but it may be - worth a try.

[Shooshie]

Until MOTU does some major fixing to the takes/comp features, we will have to do our comps 100% before starting to mix and modify. When done, you must turn your comp into a track. Whether by command or by recording it to another track, one way or another you've got to leave comp behind for good before you start mixing, splicing, dicing, speeding up, slowing down, or spinning it around. NO going back!

C'mon, MOTU! You're so close to perfection here! Get 'er done!

Shooshie

[FMiguelez]

Until MOTU does some major fixing to the takes/comp features, we will have to do our comps 100% before starting to mix and modify. When done, you must turn your comp into a track. Whether by command or by recording it to another track, one way or another you've got to leave comp behind for good before you start mixing, splicing, dicing, speeding up, slowing down, or spinning it around. NO going back!

C'mon, MOTU! You're so close to perfection here! Get 'er done!

Agreed!

And I have a new idea for takes...

Right now I'm working on compiling a final take where the rubato nature of the song prohibited me from using a metronome (and it's a cappella), so I am NOT using the Comp Tool for this song. So I'm working similarly to when we work with radio adds, with wild takes, etc.

There is one thing I REALLY like about this approach, that I would love to see somehow implemented into the Comp Tool.
To have a way of having a "short list" of the best 3 takes, or to be able to have a couple of interesting different approaches to one phrase.

The way it works now, you must select the desired takes and commit to that. But it would be nice to have a way to also select and be able to A/B at least a couple of versions, perhaps with a small short list.

This, of course, after MOTU fixes what we currently have.

What do you think?

[Shooshie]

Right now I'm working on compiling a final take where the rubato nature of the song prohibited me from using a metronome (and it's a cappella), so I am NOT using the Comp Tool for this song. So I'm working similarly to when we work with radio adds, with wild takes, etc.

There is one thing I REALLY like about this approach, that I would love to see somehow implemented into the Comp Tool.
To have a way of having a "short list" of the best 3 takes, or to be able to have a couple of interesting different approaches to one phrase.

The way it works now, you must select the desired takes and commit to that. But it would be nice to have a way to also select and be able to A/B at least a couple of versions, perhaps with a small short list.

This, of course, after MOTU fixes what we currently have.

What do you think?

Maybe not exactly what you want, but you CAN create multiple comps. At least, I think you can. I've done it, but I haven't gone back to see if the earlier ones still work correctly.

Shooshie

[FMiguelez]

Maybe not exactly what you want, but you CAN create multiple comps. At least, I think you can. I've done it, but I haven't gone back to see if the earlier ones still work correctly.

If so, I'd REALLY like to know how... I haven't seen such a feature.

The correct way to do it, and a related extra feature I REALLY WANT, is to have 2 or 3 comp takes that guarantee me that they are all different takes.
We had already talked about this in an older thread. This would be GREAT for situations where you can extract the MAIN lead comp take and 2 or 3 alternatives to thicken the vocals or for layering and real double tracking effects.

The command would be something like>
Automatically give me new tracks that exclude already-selected takes in the comp takes. This would be the easiest and fastest way the ensure, without further looking around, that any comps or alternate takes are unique.

To summarise, I want>
- A feature where one can easily build a main comp take AND a few alternate ones (the best of them all)
- A feature that allows us to automatically get new tracks with UNIQUE takes that are not repeated anywhere else.

THEN DP's Takes features would have no peers. It would be the absolute best DAW in this regard.
Well, that, and the Conductor Track-related issues we've been talking about.

[Shooshie]

Maybe not exactly what you want, but you CAN create multiple comps. At least, I think you can. I've done it, but I haven't gone back to see if the earlier ones still work correctly.

If so, I'd REALLY like to know how... I haven't seen such a feature.

Just hide the takes, then show them again. It will open a new comp track, and you start over comping the song. Earlier comps will be labeled Comp 1, Comp 2, etc.

I just tested it, and they are completely independent from each other as far as I can tell, other than the fact that they are all based on the same body of takes. If you edit an actual take, rather than just comping it, I'm sure the edit holds for all comps.

You can still go back and edit earlier comps by selecting the comp from the take list. You can compare them, but you have to stop between them unless you freeze them to another recorded track.

Shooshie

[Shooshie]

I decided to try some of the things that Fernando posted in his original post up top. He has some points, but it's not as bad as he describes. If you just change the tempo, the soundbites move as if they are events that are glued to certain events, which happen to be the starting point of each soundbite. The tempo change doesn't affect the sound bite directly, so the bites are distributed according to the new tempo(s).

I found it easiest to grasp if I just started a new take in the conductor track where I could change tempos to my heart's content. Any new tempo moved the beginnings of the soundbites to the new event location, but did not stretch the soundbites to fit in between. It seems to want to be set up to do tempo analysis on soundbites and adjust them automatically.

If I just copy the tempo track and paste it into the new Tempo Track Take, and suddenly everything will line up again. Accurately. So, what we need is to be able to stretch the soundbites to the new tempo merely by applying a new tempo marker in the Conductor track.

I was able to move entire blocks of measures, as per shift dialog or even drag. It was most successful when the takes were hidden. The comp track still works right, and can even be edited, but the takes stay back where they originally were. That's right. The comp track is playing bits of takes that are now back in the original place, even though the comp track has been moved. It's still accurate.

Now more than ever, I want MOTU to allow us to edit all comps and takes together without showing takes or doing anything.

The reality is a hodgepodge of errors that can get pretty bad, but I was always able to undo everything back to the last state that was accurate, and it all worked.

So, not entirely right, but not entirely wrong. I recommend experimenting on a copy of a file without saving it.

Too tired to give you a literal point-by-point comparison between my experiences and FM's, but I can tell you that mine were nowhere nearly as bad as his.

Shooshie

[FMiguelez]

Thanks for trying this, Shoosh.

What I'm not clear is if your comped' takes got messed up when you changed the tempo of the project (without turning them into tracks).

If you do so, do your comp takes remain usable afterwards?
When I do it, I lose all comps. The pink dividing lines appear all over the place. This happens if I lock or unlock the tracks beforehand.

[Shooshie]

The comped tracks get all messed up after changing tempos. I explained why in the post above; the BEGINNINGS of the takes are treated as an event, which is moved in time. The take itself remains in the time it was recorded in. That creates gaps between them, and they quickly lose sync with each other.

Returning the tempo to its original track fixes it 100%.
If you want to experiment, the best way is to copy the tempo track, create a new take of it, and paste the tempos into the new take. It should still be working 100% at this point. Mess with tempos, and you'll see them start to diverge. Go back to the original take, and the are fixed.

If I had more time to test, and I don't right now, I would try to get those soundbites analyzed for beats before changing any tempos, and see if that would fix it. I have a feeling that there is some way to make that work, using beats and adjusting soundbites to sequence tempos, and that sort of thing, but I just don't have time to try it now. Company coming tomorrow.

However, if I insert measures or split a sequence and move blocks around, everything still plays naturally, and my comp tracks still work 100%. If I have the takes open when I do that, it's not a pretty sight, but keep the takes hidden and make a change, and it still refers to the original takes without needing for them to be aligned with it. It's just referring to them. The comp take works fine.

Changing tempos is a strange deal. I don't think it should work this way, but I'm thinking there must be a way to make it work if your tempos and tracks all know where the beats are. That will require some testing, or else a response from Magic Dave, but I think it will probably work once we figure out the steps.

Shooshie