Any hopes for DP and VST3??

[Marc7777]

Hello all,

Does anyone know if there are plans in the near future for support of VST3? Anyone from DP HQ?

The reason for the question is because I love VE Pro and how it revolutionized the flexibility of scoring templates. I don't think I could ever go back to using my 2408's ADAT, piping a small number of audio channels. I don't know how I worked like that before.

But for those fellow VE Pro users, you probably share my frustrations with the AU limitation and having to use the Event Plugin workaround. I know this isn't DP's fault with all the bugs that come from this (i.e. - dropped notes, hanging notes, CPU freak outs, etc.) Since the Event plugin, at it's best, is a batched together workaround to make fuller use of VE Pro.

Over on the VSL forums, there are requests to make a MAS version of VE Pro.. but they say there "isn't enough user requests to make this a priority." So we can pretty much count on that never happening any time soon. which sucks.. but what can you do..

Now, recently I tried Cubase 7. I know, I know, I'm not at all condoning this, HOWEVER I spent a few days mirroring my template in Cubase. I literally used the exact MIDI routing and everything that I have setup in DP. I wanted to see what's up, so I replicated my "FULL Template" which is easily around 700+ MIDI tracks, and 100 or so audio returns/tracks. To my surprise, Cubase handled this AMAZINGLY well. as in I had the session at 256 buffer, had tons of MIDI data (to test it out) playing simultaneously and it performed perfectly. Not a single hiccup. Literally.. not ..a ..single..ONE!

This to me, confirmed that my rig is good to go. there's nothing about switchers, LAN cables, settings, preferences, hard drives, repair permissions, OS, etc. etc. nothing. The only difference is (other than a different DAW) is that i'm using it's native VST3 mode, vs AU.

Now, if I load up my "FULL Template" in DP, holy crap.. it freaks out. I have to use a paired down version that's about half the size. Even then, I have to have my session at 1024 buffer to make it so the CPU doesn't freak out all the time. However, this is with about 40 or so Event Inputs. Which, if you've researched this enough, is a big no no for stability in DP. I know.. but right now, it's the best option I can use to get a large template to work.

Sorry for the long explanation, but I wanted to explain how seemingly, just by having VST3 and by not having to have 40 Event Inputs (due to AU limitations), everything works amazingly well. Again, i'm not saying that Cubase is better or anything, in fact I don't like the workflow at all compared to DP, which is why I will always stay with DP (and I hope others do too). But I wonder if, by chance, DP incorporated VST3 functionality, would it then be the ULTIMATE DAW?!?

If I could get the same stability as I did with that Cubase trial in DP. I would be one happy camper.

Cheers!

[David Polich]

Your question strikes me as rhetorical.

Very few plug-ins and VI's are released as VST3 only. The majority are
VST2 and for good reason - a lot of users don't have VST3-capable hosts.

Cubase is one of only two DAW's that can only load VI's or plugs in its
own proprietary format...the other is Pro Tools. I don't see this as
a "feature".

But anyway, maybe DP will support VST3 in the future, who knows. Personally
it wouldn't make a difference to me at all if it did.

[kgdrum]

this is above my pay-grade but considering Steinberg recently announced they have dropped VST2 support and development doesn't it make sense that other developers will start moving towards VST3?

[David Polich]

this is above my pay-grade but considering Steinberg recently announced they have dropped VST2 support and development doesn't it make sense that other developers will start moving towards VST3?

Yes and some are - Arturia, for one.

[Marc7777]

I didn't mean for my question to be rhetorical.. I was just asking if anyone knew. Then I went on explaining that 'seemingly' using the same Studio setup, just different DAW that supports VST3, it made a world of difference.

Bottom line is this would be a HUGE help because it would eliminate the very problematic "Event Inputs" that you are forced to use due to the 16 MIDI channel limitation by AU's.

Instead of having 45 Instrument tracks (aka Event inputs), each adding buffers, CPU strain,etc., you'd just need 1 or 2. This would reduce the CPU load by 90% for me at least..

Then you could also do all the cool things like offline bouncing, etc.

A MAS version would also solve this, but sadly Vienna has little to no interest in making that happen.

I'm not a software engineer by any means, so I have no idea what exactly it means to go from VST2 to VST3.. but i guess we'll just have to keep our fingers crossed.

[Prime Mover]

Cubase is one of only two DAW's that can only load VI's or plugs in its
own proprietary format...the other is Pro Tools. I don't see this as
a "feature".

How is Logic any different? They only have AU, Apple's proprietary format. Seems it's good to be the loser of the format wars (MAS), because then you're free to adopt other multiple formats instead of desperately trying to push your own. Maybe it's not the greatest for the company, but it's a big win for the users.

My big question is, is VST3 licensing somehow different? The adoption rate has been so poor that it makes me wonder if it also costs more to make. These formats DO cost developers to license, right?

[ignatius]

perhaps i'm confused but DP8 supports VST plug ins already. most plug ins are VST 2.4 or whatever the final version of VST2 is.

so, can't that work for you already?

regarding VST3.. there is some interesting discussion on KVR from Urs of U-HE about VST3 and how stupid it is and poorly supported from steinberg etc.. and also how the dev kit is kind of idiotic. some really teething problems there.

i thin kthe VST3 talk from a few devs on kvr came up in a discussion of apple sanboxing logic if you're interested in hunting it down.

is there an benefit to VST3 from a user standpoint? what does it add to the feature set? what's the advantage?

"the great thing about standards is there's so many of them"

[Marc7777]

is there an benefit to VST3 from a user standpoint? what does it add to the feature set? what's the advantage?

The only advantage, that I care about, VST3 has over VST2 (which DP DOES support) is that you get past the 16 MIDI channel limitation. VST3 gives you 16 banks of 16 MIDI channels I believe? maybe more?

VST2 is still in the same boat as AU regarding the MIDI limitation.. as far as I know.. and if i'm wrong please correct me. i'm not at all an expert on this. just from what i've read on forums.

As far as licensing, etc.. i have no clue.

[Prime Mover]

Well then Kontakt somehow gets around that, because it has 4 banks of 16 channels, at least theoretically.

[mhschmieder]

My understanding is that the VST3 license is extremely expensive. Small vendors can't afford that. But KG is correct that Steinberg dropped support a week or so ago (after announcing it a year or more in advance) for VST2. We'll see where this leads.

[fsheinfeld]

Your question strikes me as rhetorical.

Very few plug-ins and VI's are released as VST3 only. The majority are
VST2 and for good reason - a lot of users don't have VST3-capable hosts.

Cubase is one of only two DAW's that can only load VI's or plugs in its
own proprietary format...the other is Pro Tools. I don't see this as
a "feature".

But anyway, maybe DP will support VST3 in the future, who knows. Personally
it wouldn't make a difference to me at all if it did.

A have to strongly disagree here. The difference is huge for film scoring. Lots of film composers use VEP these days and I believe that's main reason so many are migrating to Cubase (check the VI-Control forums). Not having VST3 support means a lot of workarounds and compromises and even then you have to be very lucky to have a stable big film scoring pallet.

Vienna doesn't seem to be planning MAS support, so I don't see any other solution. DP has always have a close relation with film composers, they should really listen to us on this.

[buhardilla]

Lots of film composers use VEP these days and I believe that's main reason so many are migrating to Cubase (check the VI-Control forums). Not having VST3 support means a lot of workarounds and compromises and even then you have to be very lucky to have a stable big film scoring pallet.

Ok, I agree but perhaps you must also see Cubase forums because the combo "big orchestral templates+Cubase+mac platform" is not exactly a "smooth and stable" experience. This choice have got it to migrate to PC
Pd: ... and I like/use Cubase

[David Polich]

I didnt mean to imply that VST3 support
isnt an issue at all. It just isnt an issue
for me, as I dont do film/tv scoring.

[ExpressMix]

No personal dog in this fight but I am fascinated how people just make up stuff out of thin air to make a point.

VST3 is "extremely expensive"?: AFAIK, VST has always been free and still is. There is no license fee afaict.

Only 2 hosts use VST3?: By my count there are at least 5, I'll list the better known ones...

Cubendo (obviously)
Sonar X3
Studio One
FL Studio
Adobe Audition

And a couple more way down on the bottom shelf, things not many pros would ever be interested in.

I'm constantly amazed at how misinformed net facts can be. People just kinda make stuff up to support whatever they decide to argue against.

[mikehalloran]

No personal dog in this fight but I am fascinated how people just make up stuff out of thin air to make a point.

VST3 is "extremely expensive"?: AFAIK, VST has always been free and still is. There is no license fee afaict.

Word on the street is that there is a license fee for VST3.