Tap Tempo in 7.24

[jmtroese]

I've had no luck finding anything about this posted so am asking here for help using tap tempo in DP v.7.24. I'm trying to "conduct" my prerecorded MIDI tracks using tap tempo (following directions from the manual) - I have no problem getting the tempo changes to record on the conductor track, but I thought I should be able to hear the tempo changes WHILE I'm tapping as well (yes/no? ) I don't hear the results of the tapping until I play back again using the recorded conductor track.
Also, my piece starts on third beat of first measure; once I do my "count off beats" and the sequence starts, the scroll bar is ahead of the playback sound.
Can anyone offer guidance?
Thanks so much.

[Shooshie]

Tap Tempo has basically been broken for many years. I don't know what it will take to convince MOTU to fix it.

They think it works. It does work if you start a new file, then record a very simple line with few tempo changes. But it doesn't work the way it used to in the old days. I used Tap Tempo as an essential tool in my arranging for live performance. I could conduct it as if it were a real orchestra, and it followed me very closely. It took some getting used to, because it could not read your mind, so it was always a little behind, but once you got used to it, it was very easy to tap out a great tempo map.

Now, it just barely works at all, and I've got many files for which it simply does NOT work. So, I don't know what to tell you, other than Tap Tempo is incomplete. You may get it to work, or you may not.

One trick that worked for a few versions of DP was to set an initial tempo as high as it would go. Then do the Tap Tempo. Sometimes that works. If you have to stop, when you restart, set another tempo (at the cursor location) as high as it will go.

If I recall, that doesn't work too well now. I'm very disappointed, but I've had to give up on Tap Tempo as an essential part of my workflow. With luck, we'll get a new version of DP, one of these days, in which Tap Tempo works as fluidly and accurately as it did in the 1990s. But it hasn't happened yet, and I've been reporting it for many years. Again... MOTU thinks it works. But it doesn't, as you, I, and many others have discovered.

Shooshie

[jmtroese]

OK. At least I'm not crazy, or stupid! Disappointed, yes. Thanks for taking time to reply! My husband used to use it in the 90's and kept telling me about it, so thought I'd try to figure it out now...you saved me from pulling out my hair!
Cheers!

[bayswater]

I'm using 8.04, but Tap Tempo was working in 7.24 when I used that. But I've never been able to get a consistent result from tap tempo or the other conductor track features. I do a lot of tempo map creation starting with freely recorded existing audio (been doing it all day today with a number of tracks). I find it most consistent to:

a) make sure the is a sync point in the freely recorded audio file (if that's what you're starting with), that can be set to the first beat of the first measure being used (doesn't have to be bar 1)

b) record a MIDI track that has a constant hit, e.g., a clap, at the start of each bar.

c) lock the existing tracks.

d) set the initial tempo in the conductor track as close as reasonably possible to the average tempo of the recorded MIDI track, or at least the first few bars if it is highly variable.

e) use "adjust beats" to create a tempo map in the conductor track using the MIDI events as the guide. I set the "adjust beats" dialog to "drag beats in edit window", "move one beat at a time", "adjust measures", and "preserve real time performance". I do all the adjustments in the MIDI tracks itself in the Sequence Editor, dragging the grid line defining the start of each bar to the beginning of each MIDI hit.

If everything is set up properly, the "adjust beats" process, requires little more than a nudge for each bar. You can use the snap feature, but in my case that is overkill and it assumes the timing in the original recording is very precise, and that the recorded MIDI track is also very precise.

When done, you may find that there will a few places where the tempo changes too much from one bar to the next. (Probably a result of the aforementioned slop in the original audio and the recorded MIDI.) I usually look for these and make small adjustments to the positions of the start of the bars before and after the abrupt change to smooth it out a bit.

All this takes a bit of time, but for me at least, not nearly as long as using the more "automatic" approaches.

[Shooshie]

I'm using 8.04, but Tap Tempo was working in 7.24 when I used that. But I've never been able to get a consistent result from tap tempo or the other conductor track features. I do a lot of tempo map creation starting with freely recorded existing audio (been doing it all day today with a number of tracks). I find it most consistent to:

a) make sure the is a sync point in the freely recorded audio file (if that's what you're starting with), that can be set to the first beat of the first measure being used (doesn't have to be bar 1)

b) record a MIDI track that has a constant hit, e.g., a clap, at the start of each bar.

c) lock all the existing tracks.

d) set the initial tempo in the conductor track as close as reasonably possible to the average tempo of the recorded MIDI track, or at least the first few bars if it is highly variable.

e) use "adjust beats" to create a tempo map in the conductor track using the MIDI events as the guide. I set the "adjust beats" dialog to "drag beats in edit window", "move one beat at a time", "adjust measures", and "preserve real time performance". I do all the adjustments in the MIDI tracks itself in the Sequence Editor, dragging the grid line defining the start of each bar to the beginning of each MIDI hit.

If everything is set up properly, the "adjust beats" process, requires little more than a nudge for each bar. You can use the snap feature, but in my case that is overkill and it assumes the timing in the original recording is very precise, and that the recorded MIDI track is also very precise.

When done, you may find that there will a few places where the tempo changes too much from one bar to the next. (Probably a result of the aforementioned slop in the original audio and the recorded MIDI.) I usually look for these and make small adjustments to the positions of the start of the bars before and after the abrupt change to smooth it out a bit.

All this takes a bit of time, but for me at least, not nearly as long as using the more "automatic" approaches.

Are you describing Tap Tempo or Adjust Beats? I use Adjust Beats without problem. It's Tap Tempo that doesn't work well for me. And it works to some extent, but I'm not able to start at the beginning of a complex piece of music and tap out the entire tempo performance of it.

The difference between Tap Tempo and Adjust Beats is that Adjust beats does not change the original performance. Tap Tempo does.

Shooshie

[bayswater]

Shooshie, I'm talking about both. Tap Tempo doesn't work for me, as I said at the top. Adjust Beats works if you set it up carefully, so that's what I suggested be used instead of Tap Tempo to get a song to play the way you want it.

[Shooshie]

Shooshie, I'm talking about both. Tap Tempo doesn't work for me, as I said at the top. Adjust Beats works if you set it up carefully, so that's what I suggested be used instead of Tap Tempo to get a song to play the way you want it.

Got it! Sorry I missed it earlier.

Shoosh

[waterstrum]

I agree, Tap Tempo has always been a broken feature.
Seems the same in DP8.

Even the simple task of finding the tempo of something by clicking it in is very flakey.
I've resorted to external apps for this task.

I'm thinking this should be an easy fix for MOTU.

[magicd]

we'll get a new version of DP, one of these days, in which Tap Tempo works as fluidly and accurately as it did in the 1990s.
Shooshie

Hey Shooshie!

I will wager that the primary difference between how tap tempo worked in the 1990s and how it works now comes down to one thing - digital audio.

When DP is running it's audio engine, the time base of the program is coming from the sample clock of whatever audio hardware is being used.

If you think about the job that has to be done if you are working with audio tracks, or really any digital audio function, real time control of tempo is no small job.

The original poster has contacted my with this question, so I did a bit of testing. I set up a simple file with a virtual instrument and a MIDI track. I tested DP 7.24 and DP8. Tap tempo worked in both versions with the same response. No question that real time tapping is sluggish in response (although it did basically work). It also wouldn't surprise me if response became more sluggish or completely inoperable with larger files.

Now turn off the audio engine. To test this I ran a virtual instrument in stand-alone mode and used the IAC bus to send MIDI from DP to the instrument. When DP is in MIDI only mode, it's not referencing to any audio clock. In MIDI only mode I got much "snappier" response.

Keep in mind that the tap tempo feature long predates digital audio in DP. It was designed to work with MIDI sequences. It's a different ballgame when audio is involved.

I'll bring this up with the engineers but I'm not sure what they'll be able to do about it, at last in the short term. Messing with the speed of digital audio is not a simple task.

Hope that helps!

Dave

[FMiguelez]

Now turn off the audio engine. To test this I ran a virtual instrument in stand-alone mode and used the IAC bus to send MIDI from DP to the instrument. When DP is in MIDI only mode, it's not referencing to any audio clock. In MIDI only mode I got much "snappier" response.

This is great, Dave! Thanks for letting us know.
What you wrote makes total sense. As long as it works better, I really don't mind turning off the audio engine or using external synths just for a quick Tap Tempo need. I will try it like that and see if it improves things.

I'll bring this up with the engineers but I'm not sure what they'll be able to do about it, at last in the short term. Messing with the speed of digital audio is not a simple task.

If there's anyone who can do this, it's the MOTU engineers

Thanks!

[cuttime]

Exactly how is the audio engine turned off? Disable the track? Or am I missing something?

[Dan Worley]

Exactly how is the audio engine turned off? Disable the track? Or am I missing something?

Setup > Audio System > MIDI Only

[cuttime]

Exactly how is the audio engine turned off? Disable the track? Or am I missing something?

Setup > Audio System > MIDI Only

Ahh-Thanks. I never had to go down that road before.

[stubbsonic]

I can see how running multiple streams of audio while responding to tapped tempo would be tricky. However, I wouldn't expect DP to be "messing with the speed of digital audio". I would think it was just affecting the starting of said audio. In other words, as tempo is tapped, DP initiates playback of soundbites based on their location in the sequence, but it wouldn't speed up or slow down the audio in response to the taps. Am I confused?

[bayswater]

I can see how running multiple streams of audio while responding to tapped tempo would be tricky. However, I wouldn't expect DP to be "messing with the speed of digital audio". I would think it was just affecting the starting of said audio. In other words, as tempo is tapped, DP initiates playback of soundbites based on their location in the sequence, but it wouldn't speed up or slow down the audio in response to the taps. Am I confused?

I'm confused too. I tried it with audio locked. I wouldn't think tap tempo tries to change the audio playback rate. But I still can't get it working consistently.