DP8 can't access combi patches??? WOW!

[Clueless-Doofus]

I've been a Logic user since 1992 (v2.0).
Since 1992, Logic has had multi-instruments for setting up and maintaining all the patch names for any given MIDI device. So for example, all my keyboards patch names (whether single programs or combis) were immediately accessible to be called up on any given track.

I'm testing out the DP8 demo and see no simple easy feature in DP8 to call up combi patches which my keyboard is set to combi mode. I find this a ridiculous oversight on the part of MOTU. DP8 should allow users to call up any program or combi on any keyboard or other MIDI device that contains programs and combi!!!

Am I missing something??? Please say this ain't so!

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Please see my other answer in one of your other threads. You can pick a thread and stick with it... please.

[David Polich]

And my response, in the same thread that MLC replied to.

That aside - here's the thing - it takes awhile for MOTU to compile
patch lists for a keyboard or a rack product. Realistically, give them
at least a couple of years after a product's release to do that. Some
products don't even last a year, and so I think it's wise for any company
to wait until they know for sure that a product is going to "stick".

Another thing about patchlists - frankly I've never used them, and I think
they're worthless. Especially for Korg products. Why? Because I usually end
up replacing all of them with either my own tweaks or new "from scratch"
sounds, with different names. Second, it's SO much faster just to locate
a program or combi (or voice or performance, if you're a Yamaha user) using
good old fashioned fingers.

[waterstrum]

This topic is pretty weird for me.
I bought Logic years ago and still don't use it very often.
Back at the time, Logic couldn't control patch changes on my outboard MIDI synths.
I had a couple of different experts over to try and get patch names and program selections working.
It was very convoluted and they were unable to get it working very well.
In DP, I had numerous outboard synths connected with full patch lists available....
Both programmers were boggled by the contrast.
They couldn't find a way for Logic to do it.

DP does this easily.
I still have several rack mount MIDI modules and I like being able to call up saved patches automatically.
Also nice to have a list of patches available.

Beyond that, DP is a much more logical DAW for me.
When I open Logic, I'm in a strange land of illogical design.

[Clueless-Doofus]

@Waterstrum I've used Logic since 1992, Logic 2.0 and from day 1 had 0 problems accessing all my MIDI patches (programs & combis) and 0 problems doing program changes via Logic.

Nevertheless, I think during the past 3+ years with, Apple demonstrated no serious interest in continued upgrade and development for Logic and hince I'm considering jumping ship to DP8.

[Gravity Jim]

I tried Logic last year and was stunned to find that Logic doesn't use Apple's own midnam file technology... to get patch names for outboard synths in Logic, you either have to find or beg for a patch name file that someone else has generated on their own or make one yourself, which is a tedious PITA. (Waterstrum. you are correct... it takes hours and hours of screwing around to get Logic to access outboard synth patches about half as well as DP does. I never got all my patch names loaded because I just got tired of doing it.) So, please, don't tell me any tales about how much better Logic's handling of this kind of information is, because it (frankly) sucks.

Not as bad as Logic's execrable timing between tracks (pure unusable slop, IMO), or its completely unreliable audio handling (not sample accurate in any way, but that's alright for the EDM guys)... but still, pretty awful. I ended up shelving Logic and coming back to DP because I do professional work that needs to be in time and in phase.

There are many, many reasons to use DP over Logic. Whether or not it accesses the Combis on your Korg is not one of them. As David points out, the easiest way to access them is to simply press the Combi button on the front panel and send the appropriate patch change number... that's exactly how I accessed them, even the ones from plug in cards, on my 01/W ProX for years.

[Clueless-Doofus]

@Gravity Jim: I agree with several of the things you stated except the stuff you said about the Logic patch stuff. No problem. I'm not trying to begin a which one is better war of words about Logic vs DP. Thanks for sharing your input.

[magicd]

The OP doesn't actually mention patch lists. He does mention accessing combi patches on an external device.

Most synths access patches with patch change messages and combinations of controller messages. Synths that have different modes, such as program or combi, use various methods to change modes, including sysex messages.

The simple fact is that DP can generate all types of MIDI messages, therefore yes, DP can access combi patches, banks, mode changes, etc. A simple way to do this is to manually enter the MIDI messages in the event list editor for the track.

A patch list is a text document. A complete patch list includes all the controller, sysex, and patch change messages as part of the text. Under Mac OS, patch lists are handled by the Apple Core MIDI System. Apple however, does not provide any patch lists or tools for developing patch lists.

DP installs patch lists for several hundred MIDI devices, including many available expansion banks. I don't know how many patch lists are included with Logic, but I speculate that neither software installs patch lists for every available MIDI device out there.

There is no common patch list management system in the Windows OS. So DP on Windows handles patch lists internally, using the same text documents that are used on Mac.

When you configure DP to use a MIDI device, if there is a patch list document for that device, it will show up in the Patch and Default Patch columns. If there is no available patch list for the device, DP will display a generic patch list numbered 1-128

In the case of multi-timbral synths, there is a potential problem with combi patches vs program patches. Specifically, if the synth is set up for multi-timbral mode, that means it can receive on separate MIDI channels to play separate program patches. Stock multi patches are typically set up as layered patches on a single MIDI channel. That means if you assign MIDI channel 10 to a drum sound when the synth is in multi-timbral mode, and then switch the synth to combi mode (where the stock combi patches all receive on MIDI channel 1), you lose your drums. Therefore, it's more likely to see program patch lists as opposed to combi patch lists, and it's very unlikely that you'll see program and combi patches in the same patch list.

Of course, a lot if this is up to how the synth works. And from the point of view of the text documents, you can customize any kind of patch list you want.

Dave

[magicd]

@Gravity Jim: I agree with several of the things you stated except the stuff you said about the Logic patch stuff. No problem. I'm not trying to begin a which one is better war of words about Logic vs DP. Thanks for sharing your input.

CD,

Welcome to the forum and welcome to DP! I'm a MOTU employee and I'm here to help. You'll also find that the regular posters here are knowledgeable and friendly.

Don't be shy with your questions, and if you need a contact in the company, my direct email is magicd@motu.com

Best,
Dave

[ggm1960]

I feel the need to weigh in on this as this topic has recently caused me some pain as well.

I agree that it's incredibly ironic that Logic doesn't follow Apple's own Audio/MIDI way of using midinam and mididev files for device patch lists. I went through the trouble of pasting all my info into that program because I like to use it occasionally.

Back to DP, however. I recently upgraded the MacBook Pro I use in my basement studio to 10.8.x from 10.6.x. Overall this went well and I didn't seem to have any problems with DP until after the 8.02 version came out. It was then that I lost the patch list definitions for my Korg TR88 and Roland Fantom XR units......again. Yes I've had this happen before although I don't recall what triggered it.

So I go back to Library/audio/MIDI...etc. and put my files (I'd found on the internet somewhere way back when) back in. Fortunately I have both a nam and dev file for the Roland but for the Korg I only have the nam file. Last time this wasn't a problem because the system was smart enough to allow the Cherry Picker program to modify the Korg dev file which all really happened rather automatically but now the Cherry Picker program will no longer work under OS10.8. Any programs that were written on, or designed to also operate on, power PC systems will no longer run apparently.

Anyone else having this problem, solutions?

[NazRat]

Back to DP, however. I recently upgraded the MacBook Pro I use in my basement studio to 10.8.x from 10.6.x. Overall this went well and I didn't seem to have any problems with DP until after the 8.02 version came out. It was then that I lost the patch list definitions for my Korg TR88 and Roland Fantom XR units......again. Yes I've had this happen before although I don't recall what triggered it.

Anyone else having this problem, solutions?

This has been an issue and discussed in previous threads (http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtop ... =1&t=51483). Since DP8, MIDI devices are over written with each install. They reworked several profiles that used to have illegal characters in their file names to allow for Win compatibility and I guess decided to just overwrite everything. This is where having a good backup comes in handy. I keep an additional copy of everything in the Documents folder for quick replacement on updates.

[ggm1960]

Since DP8, MIDI devices are over written with each install. They reworked several profiles that used to have illegal characters in their file names to allow for Win compatibility and I guess decided to just overwrite everything. This is where having a good backup comes in handy. I keep an additional copy of everything in the Documents folder for quick replacement on updates.

Ok, good info and got me thinking. I have the HD from the dead MBP I had been using in an enclosure. I bet I could pull that file I need out of there. Good thing I kept that around and intact!