Phasing Issues with DP 8

[felicopter]

Since I installed DP 8 I do have some random crashes and bugs even with my DP7, but the one that is bothering me most is some phasing issues. When I add enough tracks (not too many by the way, my current session works with around 50, including Aux, MIDI and Instrument tracks) and especially by adding effects the audio picture is way out of balance and working on my studio monitor it hurts my ears after a while.

Sounds like comb filters (hope that is the right translation).

I downloaded the Pro Tools Test Version, added the sessions and tweaked it just a little bit.
It sounds way more balanced, even though I didn't do much.

Also with the same amount of plugins it still runs smoothly.
I know it is still too boomy.

This is not a finished mix.
I did not intend to do a sound comparison.
This is just to demonstrate my issue.

Do you have any suggestion of how to change my settings to get rid of it?
Also, I do have a 1-Year All Areas Pass for groove3,
so if they have any tips on that in their videos,
feel free to just direct me towards their page.

I'd be very happy to solve this.

~ http://felou.de/Return-D.mp3 (DP)
~ http://felou.de/Return-P.mp3 (PT)

[Sean Kenny]

Since I installed DP 8 I do have some random crashes and bugs even with my DP7, but the one that is bothering me most is some phasing issues. When I add enough tracks (not too many by the way, my current session works with around 50, including Aux, MIDI and Instrument tracks) and especially by adding effects the audio picture is way out of balance and working on my studio monitor it hurts my ears after a while.

Sounds like comb filters (hope that is the right translation).

I downloaded the Pro Tools Test Version, added the sessions and tweaked it just a little bit.
It sounds way more balanced, even though I didn't do much.

Also with the same amount of plugins it still runs smoothly.
I know it is still too boomy.

This is not a finished mix.
I did not intend to do a sound comparison.
This is just to demonstrate my issue.

Do you have any suggestion of how to change my settings to get rid of it?
Also, I do have a 1-Year All Areas Pass for groove3,
so if they have any tips on that in their videos,
feel free to just direct me towards their page.

I'd be very happy to solve this.

~ http://felou.de/Return-D.mp3 (DP)
~ http://felou.de/Return-P.mp3 (PT)

On which instrument or what element of the mix are you hearing the comb filtering. I have to say I'm struggling to hear it

The mixes are very different. PT mix is much darker more ambience, DP mix is much drier lighter and the toms in comparison are way down in the mix. If what you are hearing is only happening on the introduction of plugins then what are these, are they internal plugs or external card. Plugin compensation in DP is a set in and forget function. In this respect DP is the most reliable of the 3 daws I use. Mainly cos unlike the other it advances the playback of the delayed audio to retain its time positional integrity, whereas PT and Logic just delay everything else so it's all late. Not using 8 yet so can't comment on that. PT needs monitoring for delay compensation. If you go over the delay allowance (short medium or long) you incur an audible delay. Why they call it automatic, I don't know!

I have to say on both mixes I do wonder whether there is some phase misalignment between the individual mics. Wondered if you phase aligned them? Sorry, if you have and I am stating the obvious.

Sorry I can't be of more help. Hopefully some of the more knowledgable DP guys on here will be able to help you if it's 8 related.

I guess they're all getting their zzzzz's given their timezones.

Regards

Sean

[MIDI Life Crisis]

zzz...

[felicopter]

Hey Sean,

Thanks for your ideas.
I use internal Plugins along with alpha compressor, mpressor and the Passeq.
Other than that only internal Plugs and one IK Multimedia Compressor on the main bus.

I don't think it is so much about the Plugs,
but rather about the multi channel session,
even though I will have to elaborate on this one.

But I think that any of those should not cause this issue.
The obvious is always the best, but yes, I did phase align the tracks
and checked that over and over again.

I know the tracks are way different.
Maybe I should do one mix with only the third party plugins
so they can be the same or without them all.

Maybe it is not exactly comb filter.
But on my end it is out of balance and one unpleasant listen.
Also I never get the low frequencies full in the mix.

Don't know whether this is DP 8 specific for me.
I have done mostly singer songwriter stuff before with very few tracks.



As for MIDI Life Crisis, I read great replies from you,
this however isn't one of those.

I find it at least disrespectful.
I am about to mix one EP
and will soon record and mix another one.

This issue is driving me crazy
I spent hours on that
and today even contacted Avid with some presale questions,
because I can't handle it myself.

[FMiguelez]

When I add enough tracks (not too many by the way, my current session works with around 50, including Aux, MIDI and Instrument tracks) and especially by adding effects the audio picture is way out of balance and working on my studio monitor it hurts my ears after a while.

How can you determine whether this is a DP8 thing or that this particular mix is simply more "difficult"?

What do you mean by what I just bolded? The "way out of balance" is relative to what, exactly? By comparing to the tracks without the effects? Or perhaps similar mixes you did in the past?
Is this mix in a style you have experience with, or is it a new one?

I downloaded the Pro Tools Test Version, added the sessions and tweaked it just a little bit.
It sounds way more balanced, even though I didn't do much.

I take it this PT mix is IDENTICAL to whatever you had in DP, including the same plug-ins and their settings, correct? If not, then now wonder... it's simply due to a different mix.

Do you have any suggestion of how to change my settings to get rid of it?

What setting are you talking about? For a different sound you need to change your mix until it sounds the way you want it.
I'm not aware of any Preference settings that would stop your mix from sounding muddy or "weird" other than tweaking the actual mix.

Or perhaps I'm not understanding your issue correctly...
Are you implying that there's something happening in DP8 that prevents you from attaining your usual and desired sound? What happens if you open this mix to DP7? Does it sound the same?

[Kurt Cowling]

This sounds like one of your speakers has the polarity reversed.

[Kurt Cowling]

Just to clarify... By "sounds like" I mean seems like. I didn't listen to your mixes, but another poster didn't hear the problem while you say it makes your head hurt.

[HCMarkus]

Five Years... my brain hurts a lot.

[felicopter]

Thanks Kurt, I will check that again.
It is just crazy, because I don't hear this problem anywhere else.
PT, iTunes, Safari..




FMiguelez, oh it is more difficult. I only mixed such a big (in track numbers) session once, but I thought it would stay in phase anyway. For example, when I add a parallel compressed drum in DP it introduces these shiftings even more. In Pro Tools - with the same tracks phase inverted - it just adds the more compressed drum sound.

The "way out of balance" is subjective and emotion driven, yet relative to my first mix, yes (DP6, by the way).

The style is new for me, only did for songs before (one EP) and other than that more the singer/songwriter kind of music.

The mix is not identical. I imported the session from DP and had to reloaded many effects, because I used a lot of MOTU plugins. I don't expect it to sound the same, not even close, just in phase.

It is too bad you can hear this.
Good that it is obviously not a DP issue.
But I not know what introduces this issue while I am listening.

Yes, DP is the last source I came to check for any difficulties, since I do not know what else to do and I was talking about buffer settings or anything that adjusts the way audio is handled. Also DP is already pretty slowed down, could this be the reason?

And as I said, thanks for the obvious - honestly.
I did not check that same session in DP7.

PT 10 is still 32 Bit, do you think this could be an issue (the 64 Bit of DP8 is what I mean)?

[Nibiru]

My head hurts from reading this thread.

Seems like Avid paid someone to post incoherent nothing's about DP8. Sorry to be so cynical in this age of internet bs...but the wording is suspect.

[felicopter]

I feel like a public enemy,
where everybody is ranting,
while I experience one serious issue.

Anyway, I can understand why you think so;
The Band was here today.
They liked the DP mix better overall.
Just some volume settings they preferred in the other mix.

We sat down to listen together.
I started DP and hit play.
A few seconds later they said:

"Uh, that sounds weird. Pretty weak."

Pro Tools mix sounded way better.
They checked at home and they wanted the mix we worked on today (in Pro Tools) sound brighter and clearer like the DP mix. Which still sounds stronger at home.

Will the 64Bit processing have any effect on my MOTU 896 mk lll ?
Will I have to change any settings?


PS: I wish anybody would pay me for this mess. I used PT because they offer a test Version. Logic was my first choice, since I have worked with Logic during my apprenticeship, but they do not offer a test version.

[David Polich]

I'm not experiencing any "phase" issues with DP8 at all.

I really think the mix "problem" is your fault. Sorry, don't mean to
hurt your feelings. I've certainly done some bad mixes in my day. All of
us have at one time or another.

Start your mix over without any plug-ins. Begin adding them to tracks,
one track at a time. You may discover that the problem is a particular
plug-in. It also could be that some of your tracks were recorded out of
phase to begin with, or just recorded badly.

[felicopter]

Thank you very much, David.
I greatly appreciate your help
and will restart my mix today.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

No offense, felicopter, but on the outset this sounded like a case of a dog chasing it's own tail. DP doesn't create phase shifting, processing errors do and that generally stems from user error. Trying to chase it down as a DP problem is a little like a dog chasing it's own tail.

I'd start by disabling ALL plugs in BOTH DAWs and doing your A-B comparison then. Then add them in one by one and continue your experiments. You'll find DP sounds at least as good as any other DAW - if not better.

[Radiogal]

DP sounds better and we all know that after the tests I've been writing about. No kidding.