Who here actually produces as their day job?

[Prime Mover]

I've been seeing these "get to know the community posts" quite a bit recently, and even though I've enjoyed them, I've got another, possibly a little darker question to ask... I've come to know certain people here who really are pros. But seeing how little money is in the industry, I'm guessing that quite a few of you, even probably some of the more knowledgable, don't do it as a day job. I think it's a bit of a silent chasm that haunts artistic communities. Some of us here probably do it as a day job, some of us here do it as a side job, and some of us here probably don't see a dime for a our work.

Furthermore, does it make any difference? I'm a video producer by trade. I do it 8 hours a day, and I've done it for years. And ya know what? I don't think I'm half the video producer as I am an audio producer. It's an interesting job, I get to be very creative and do a lot of different things, and it's fairly stable (I don't work on commission). But I don't feel nearly as in my element behind a camera or in an edit bay as I do in DP. I always thought that day in, day out WORK and FEAR OF BEING POOR made people good at what they do, I think that's a common conception. But I'm not sure.

I guess this has turned into less of a "who's who" type question, as a "what do you think?" type question. Feel free to share as little or as much as you want.

For the record, I barely make a dime in music. I keep hoping I will though, so don't tell that to the IRS.

[FMiguelez]

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I am fortunate enough to produce custom-music as my only income source. So it's my day job, and even my night job

I mostly do jingles and music for Mexican TV series, and even soap operas. I love it because, especially the latter, allows me to write the music I love and the music I'd write anyway, even if I didn't get paid. This is mostly very dramatic orchestral music. You'd be surprised with what I can get away with! (in terms of complex modern harmony, drama, orchestration, etc.)

One thing I really don't like is that every year I notice ad agencies and production houses have less and less budget for music, and at the same time they expect great productions in a very short time. A few years ago the "standard" for a 30 second jingle, for national (Mexican) TV, licensed for 6 months was around 6K. Now it's more like 2K-3K (including internet stuff).
I am really getting tired of these jingles, though. I find that doing them is not satisfying anymore... most of them are pretty boring (kitty and doggie food music-like), but I've had the chance to write music for great ads, where you can produce more artistic and meaningful music (but this is rather rare).

I prefer MUCH more doing music for TV series... taking into account sync and performance royalties, the money is much better, and the music I write for this is the one I love writing, so I'm trying to get more of these gigs and less jingles.

Competition is basically brutal and cut-throat, and the market is simply saturated.

Sometimes I worry because the future of custom music is not looking too bright now-a-days. And it's the only thing I know how to do, so I hope making a living with music production keeps on putting food on my table!

[Prime Mover]

Yeah, I've done a few jingles for my own TV ads, but most of the time I'm just trying to be goofy or nostalgic or both, I can't take jingles seriously, so I have to make them tongue and cheek, but it works.

From my vantage point, there's not much of a future in TV commercial music beds. Unless you're scoring something with specific sound cues (which I notice isn't really that common), most agencies will settle for a good royalty free library bed. Jingles, TV shows, and the percentage of ads that do require cues are the way to go.

Then again, TV as a whole is really up in the air. It's making less and less every year, losing mindshare to various forms of internet media. Doesn't mean the sound work still isn't out there, but I wouldn't place my bets on TV specifically.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Tim.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

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[Shooshie]

With the exception of some free-lance writing jobs that I've done over the years, music has been my only income since college. But "producer?" That's just one of many hats I've worn. Early in college, a music pro told me that to make it in the business you have to wear a lot of hats. He said to be prepared to be a teacher, copyist, engineer, composer, arranger, director, performer, recording artist, agent, and anything else that comes up. As a musician, you must know a lot of things about a lot of aspects of the business, and no music school can teach them all to you. So you have to go out and learn it.

I put myself through college teaching and playing gigs. In my late 20's I was a concert artist, performing in various ensembles ranging from solo recitals to chamber music to pro orchestral performances and recordings. At 30, I took a job as an agent to learn the inside of the business. This was an internationally known agency, and we were booking millions of dollars in touring shows each year. It was the greatest education a musician can have, but it also can make you cynical about musicians and performing. It's not what you think it is.

Several years later I went back to making music, and soon I was hired to arrange, create, and direct a touring concert show with a rising star performer. That job used MIDI, score writing, arranging, composing, engineering, and directing. Also I learned a bit about lighting. I worked for that show for about 17 years. A few years ago, that came to an end. Except for a few little playing or recording gigs, since then I've been coasting, because it's just what I want to do, and I can do it now. The only problem is that the music business has changed a lot, and it feels very strange not to have something lined up. I honestly don't know what I'd want to do next if I had to go back to work right now, much less whether I could actually get a job doing it. There's not a lot of money floating around this industry today -- well, that's not entirely true, but most of it is going into pockets that had little to do with creating it. Apple, for example. Amazon. The big shows of Las Vegas are now on a shoestring budget. I suspect it's the same in NYC. But the pendulum will swing back again. At least, it always has.

So, currently? I'm not working for anyone but myself. But I had a 30 year career as a musician before that, and even more if you include the teaching that put me through school. (I haven't taught since 1985) In retrospect it turns out I've had a very successful career. I've known platinum album bands who rolled in money briefly, but soon were painting houses or carrying mail. At least I've only had to work in music. For album performers it's hardly a business, but more of a lottery. Some manage to work very, very hard at promotion and finding the next big thing, and they manage to stay busy as pop artists until fame finally makes them "too big to fail." But the vast majority of big names are surprisingly poor, or at least not wealthy. The steady money has always been behind the scenes wearing a lot of hats. It's all music related, but it requires a diverse set of skills. You don't have to be the best in the world at all of them, but it helps if you've got genuine talent.

The truth is that it's very hard to make a living at this, and it's almost impossible to succeed outside of a city with a big music industry. Had I not been an agent, I would never have acquired the connections that kept me working all those years. The agency was my real musical education, even if two degrees in music taught me all the classical fundamentals. And MIDI? Entirely self-taught. One had to be then. I was always on the cutting edge of that stuff, and there were no "teachers" for it. I studied audio engineering with a pro for a while. He's so rich now he probably doesn't even remember my name, but I learned a lot from him. Still, most of my engineering skills came by doing it and reading about it while I did it. I didn't learn that in college, either. So, I had some unique skills that got me work in other parts of the country, even though I was living in Dallas. Also, I kept my expenses very low. Music is a feast/famine sort of business. You learn to hang on to every penny, and to live very cheaply so that you can coast when you need to.

If I were working the way I worked in the 80's, 90's, and early 2000's, I would not have the time to be answering so many questions in this forum. I'm probably not a good boss for myself, because I tend to let myself be distracted a lot. But I have a number of projects that are beginning to take shape. And it's been nice not having to run to the airport all the time. Best of all, though, is that the projects I've had on my list for decades are finally getting done, and the fact that I have waited so long to do them means that I finally have the technology to get them done! It's an amazing time to be doing this.

I don't think I'd fit in a regular job. I still wear my hair in a ponytail, long after most of my friends have gone respectably bald, but I do it for personal reasons. Nevertheless, it does kind of mark me as one with a non-standard career. Not many bankers my age wear ponytails. But even my reputation and past record do not automatically make me able to get other steady gigs. You get those by working harder than 10 people without complaining, beating the bushes, finding out what's going on, and -- when you get work -- doing better work than you're asked to do. And the truth is that I'm just burned out. I don't want to do that anymore. I want to work for me for a while, and that's what I'm doing.

Sorry, maybe this is more than you asked for, but "professional" is a very liquid term in this business, and it usually refers to a level of quality more than the amount of income. I've been fortunate to have made a comfortable living at music for quite a number of years, but it's very possible that I will never make another dime at it. I haven't decided yet. It's intimidating to go back in at my age. Even with a résumé with all the cool things I've been able to do, my chances of getting work are no better than a kid right out of college. Maybe worse. Oh, and I should add that my love has always been classical, with spinoffs in jazz and progressive rock; my phone doesn't exactly ring off the hook with classical offers, though I have performed with several major orchestras and recorded for RCA/Tel-Arc with the Dallas Symphony. Yet much of my pro work has been more at pop/rock; not my first choice. Yes, I did have a decent career building up in classical music years ago, but having a family changed that. I couldn't wait for that career to develop. I had to go get work. And it had to be in music.

Guess that covers it. There's lots more I didn't tell, but it's not important; the bottom line is that I wore a lot of hats. When someone needed something done, I could say "yes." I could go anywhere and do anything in music. And it's been a wonderful life, and I wouldn't trade it for any other career. But someone starting out now is going to have to invent a new way, and they will. We'll watch and learn. Maybe I'll have go to put on THAT hat!

Shooshie

[David Polich]

I've made a living at sound design, doing programming for manufacturers
like Yamaha, Korg, and Dave Smith, since 1991. I've produced around 20
CD's for indie artists, but those projects never made any real money.
Hasn't stopped me from continuing to work on my music production skills.
I like to think I've improved a lot over the years. Recently I started
getting some outside mixing work.

The economy has hit me hard like a lot of people, though, so after 20
years away from it, I've sought out and joined a couple of tribute
bands, playing keyboards in those. I know a number of session players,
guys who have played on major famous records, who are doing the
same thing. You gotta do something to keep the bills paid. If someone
wants to pay me to play "Hit Me With Your Best Shot" again, I'm up for it.

DP figures prominently in my live gigs as well as all my studio work.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

..

[Phil O]

I'm sad to say that for the past 6 years I've had to take a second job teaching to make ends meet. Up until that point I did this full time. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that things will pick up, but who knows. Right now it's about 70% music/recording, 30% teaching.

Phil

[kwiz]

I produce music for independent and major label artists as well as compose music for ESPN, HBO, and ABC. I've also been Beyonce's programmer for her last 2 world tours. I've also mixed records for artist on Capitol Records and MCA/Universal Records.

[EMRR]

Music recording is my #1 job, I do tube audio repair and modification when recording runs slow, and I get the occasional call for corporate event production. I haven't seen a W-2 since the early 1990's.

[buzzsmith]

I'm 100% music, too.

Probably 50% from the studio and 50% from piano gigs.

I'm feeling the recession, studio wise, 'cause the ratio used to be more on the studio side...maybe 70-30.

I'll edit and detail more later...waiting on a brunch appointment.

(I'm not in Shooshie's league, but I'll do the best that I can!)

Buzzy

[Dan Worley]

I'm a hack. I taught myself guitar when I was 12 from the "Beatles Complete" songbook (I still can't play worth a darn) and started gigging with my best friend as an acoustic duo when we were 14. I gigged (and did a thousand other jobs) until I was 25 and then left it because Disco had killed off a lot of the clubs we played in and I was drinking too much and I had a one-year-old son by then.

I went to work for Hewlett Packard. After I escaped from there I went to work for a company that sold SCUBA equipment. Then I went to a small private studio with my best friend because they were having a hard time mixing his album. I had always messed around with recording equipment so I gave it a shot and it worked out and I was offered a job and became friends and business partners with the owner, who is my boss to this day. The best boss anyone could ever have. She's fantastic! That was 20 years ago. I didn't know how much I didn't know. Once I got into it I realized there was much more to it than I ever thought possible and that excited me. I still find it very challenging and that's what keeps me interested.

I'm also a book editor for the same company and do layout and design for books. Been making a living at it and paying the bills doing music and books for about 20 years while living in the boonies, so pretty good. It sure has changed a lot. Sometimes I very much dislike the changes and sometimes I'm excited by them. But it is what it is and you go along with it and do it your own way.

Unfortunately, my music partner and best friend of 43 years passed away just recently. He was 54.

c-ya,

Dan Worley

[Tim]

Me.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Best answer yet. I've edited my posts to reflect this concise man. I strive to be just like him in posting and guitar playing and fail in both areas.