Anyone summing to mix?

[waxman]

Anyone using a summing device for mixdown?

[jlaudon]

Yup, I use a Dangerous D-box with the 4 pairs coming from an Apogee Ensemble. Makes a difference, opens up the mix more.

[waxman]

That is my set up... I just did my first few mixes. It is truly amazing. Could you give me any tips or elaborate on what you have experienced using the dbox...

thanks so much

waxman

[amplidood]

A friend of mine just got this in his rig...


http://www.thermionicculture.com/produc ... stard.html

We're mixing a huge song and... holy Cow. I will never be able to mix purely ITB again. We set it up so we could switch back and forth to compare, and the difference is night and day.

[Splinter]

Yes, I'm sure summing boxes do improve the sound, but I still hold to my contention that it has nothing to do with summing, rather analog, harmonic distortion that is pleasing to the ear. Tests have been done and if you run a summed ITB mix through your summing box you will obtain the same openness of sound and depth of mix. It has nothing to do with summing.

As one who mixed old, 16 bit DA-38s through a Soundcraft Ghost for years, I still believe I achieved better sounding, faster mixes on that system than my pimped out 24 bit, 96kHz computer. But then again, the stack of tube pres and compressors, plus those gorgeous Ghost EQs are hard to beat for adding analog beauty to any mix. That said, with a great analog front-end to your DAW and some of the current generation, analog-like plugs, I'm starting to get similar results.

With plugs like URS Saturation, URS CSP, McDSP plugs(which are being released as AUs!), Abbey Roads, Soundtoys, Stillwell, Softube, Tritone Digital... even IK, Nomad Factory and many others I'm sure I forgetting, much of that analog goodness can be created and captured right ITB. Don't be fooled by the summing box rhetoric. What you're hearing is ole analog distortion, NOT better summing.

That said, if it's working for ya, don't wreck a good think. I just think you can obtain as good or similar results without spending a load on DAs and summing devices.

[David Polich]

Yes, I'm sure summing boxes do improve the sound, but I still hold to my contention that it has nothing to do with summing, rather analog, harmonic distortion that is pleasing to the ear. Tests have been done and if you run a summed ITB mix through your summing box you will obtain the same openness of sound and depth of mix. It has nothing to do with summing.

As one who mixed old, 16 bit DA-38s through a Soundcraft Ghost for years, I still believe I achieved better sounding, faster mixes on that system than my pimped out 24 bit, 96kHz computer. But then again, the stack of tube pres and compressors, plus those gorgeous Ghost EQs are hard to beat for adding analog beauty to any mix. That said, with a great analog front-end to your DAW and some of the current generation, analog-like plugs, I'm starting to get similar results.

With plugs like URS Saturation, URS CSP, McDSP plugs(which are being released as AUs!), Abbey Roads, Soundtoys, Stillwell, Softube, Tritone Digital... even IK, Nomad Factory and many others I'm sure I forgetting, much of that analog goodness can be created and captured right ITB. Don't be fooled by the summing box rhetoric. What you're hearing is ole analog distortion, NOT better summing.

That said, if it's working for ya, don't wreck a good think. I just think you can obtain as good or similar results without spending a load on DAs and summing devices.

+1.

This is an ongoing debate, of course. Pros and cons on both sides of it.

The ITB fans have a good point in that their mixes always remain portable and recallable. And summing boxes/mixers are expensive, not all of us have the budget to do that, so we have to master the zen of ITB mixing.

The summing fans point out that it isn't so much the analog vibe as it is a matter of the computer doing less number crunching and thereby pulling less of a percentage of resources that would otherwise go to your plug-ins - or something like that. I'm not a math guy, and besides I don't think it's a math issue. It's whether it sounds good.

If it sounds good, it is good - however you do it.

[rumorcontrol]

Shadow Hills Equinox, with Retro Instruments 2A3 EQ and Shadow Hills Mastering Compressor on the master bus. Awesome.RC

[waxman]

I appreciate the debate. However for this thread I would just like to hear who is summing and maybe some of the things they are finding out about it. For me it is not an either or issue. I recently got the Dangerous Dbox. The difference is quite noticeable.

My gratitude to Big Wave Dave... who gently coaxed me to switch from Peaks Mastering tools to Ozone 4.

I am mixing back 2TRK to DP7... Allen Sides is doing a promo for Tascam and says 90% of the "hits" are NOT mastered ITB.

Once again however for the purposes of this thread please give any insights to what you are finding in Summing... especially elaborate on levels, hardware after the summing box like compressors, VU, Manley Slam, what you are recording to as in the case of Mr. Sides claiming the Tascam is simply the "best" recorder ever made.

thanks,

waxman

[davedempsey]

Summing in TL Audio Ebony Series A4 - Class A and switchable tube stage

Outputting summed mix into Ebony Series A2 Stereo Processor - Class A compression and eq plus switchable tube stage.

and then into line in of Peach Audio m196se Tube pre - best mic pre and Di I've ever heard.

Re-converted in Apogee Rosetta 200. Occasionally burnt in real time to stand alone burner.

What I'm really liking about the A4 Summer is the pan pot on each of the 16 channels - massive improvement to panning in DP. A2 compression and eq used only very sparingly, 2:1 and slight colour. Tube stages on A2 and A4 used only sometimes - valve goodness coming mostly from the Peach Audio device.

It's the best of both worlds - plugs and automation ITB, panning, summing and master buss compression/eq OTB. Next hardware buy is DA16X as dedicated feed to A4.

[n2mpujack]

I'm thankful for this thread as with the new system I'll be putting together I've been thinking about doing otb summing. Something I don't quite have a total handle on is: okay, with mono tracks (vocals, guitars, the multiple channels from a drum kit, individual instruments, etc.) it's treated in the computer as 1 track, panned however one wants, right? And to do analog summing only one track signal gets outputted to the summing box, right? But when it comes to softsynth's most of them are in stereo (2 track). That would mean bringing two signals into the summing box, correct? In the TL box mentioned here levels aren't so much controlled as panning it seems. In that case, how do I handle panning? From inside the computer or the summing box? And for those summing boxes that have levels controls, do they have any way to gang two controls/channels together so that one set of controls controls both sides (left & right) of the softsynth?

[bchpurchase07]

I use the D-Box to SUM using DP 6.3 and my MOTU 896 interface. All of the reviews you read on the D-Box are true...world class pro mixes!!! Immediately took my mixes to the next level, with not much effort. Simply send your recorded tracks to be summed into new stereo audio track, eliminate your master fader, pan accordingly, and hear the difference. THE D/A converters are outstanding, and the learning curve is minimal. All of my final mixes go through the D-Box now, as this is the sound I now prefer. Makes it easy to dial up a signature sound that can be re-visited at any time.

With the addition of the D-Box to my rig, coupled with WAVES Studio Classics Collection, my final mixes take on a life of their own...all ITB!!!

...iMac 24", MOTU 896, DP 6.3, UA-LA-610, Vintech x73i, Dangerous D-box, WAVES Studio Classics Collection, JBL monitors, Nuemann, Shure, Beyer, and AT mics, Gibson, Martin, & Taylor guitars

[waxman]

I'm thankful for this thread as with the new system I'll be putting together I've been thinking about doing otb summing. Something I don't quite have a total handle on is: okay, with mono tracks (vocals, guitars, the multiple channels from a drum kit, individual instruments, etc.) it's treated in the computer as 1 track, panned however one wants, right? And to do analog summing only one track signal gets outputted to the summing box, right? But when it comes to softsynth's most of them are in stereo (2 track). That would mean bringing two signals into the summing box, correct? In the TL box mentioned here levels aren't so much controlled as panning it seems. In that case, how do I handle panning? From inside the computer or the summing box? And for those summing boxes that have levels controls, do they have any way to gang two controls/channels together so that one set of controls controls both sides (left & right) of the softsynth?

Basically think in stereo pairs when it comes to summing for at least the first few stems. On the DBox there are pans only on ch 7&8. So if you put something into only channel 1 it would be panned hard left.

What I am noticing is I used to have to turn up the kick and snare as more instruments came in. It was always a fight to get enough headroom for the drums. It always seemed the drum mix just deteriorated. Well that is because it was deteriorating. The Dbox stopped all that. It takes the job of summing out of the hands of the i/o and the computer. The difference very apparent. Expect to see m-audio, pre-sonus and a few others coming out with 1/2 priced versions. But the converters are the key. I have tried summing with a Trident console and a Midas console and it just is not the same.

The Dbox and the others mentioned in this thread are wonderful tools. looking forward to the dbox 16. Eight stems would be really helpful. But the 4 on the dbox are working fine. 1&2 are drums, percussion and bass. 3&4 guitars, 5&6 keys and intruments. 7&8 vocals. I buss the FX to whatever is the predominant instrument in that stem.

No master fader and getting used to the meterbridge for checking levels. Hope that helps...

[kwiz]

I have a Dangerous LT that I use from time to time but lately I've been sending 8 stereo pairs back to my DM4800 console via lightpipe for summing.
Been getting great results that way and with the Dangerous LT but the console gives me a bit more flexibility regarding additional compression, EQ, and F/X.

[dudge]

I use a Folcrom fed by two Apogee Rosetta 800s, into two Avedis Audio MA5, or two John Hardy M1, and then a Drawmer 1068. Love it.

[newrigel]

Over on GS they had a blind test shootout and it was hard to tell the difference for most... all of the "pro" engineers picked ITB when they could swear that it was summing used and thought it was a rigged.. I think if your good your good regardless of what you have to sum to whether it's ITB or to whatever. IMO, it's what goes IN is what matters... not what's on the out. When performers go into a world class studio and see the Neve or SSL they get pumped up and perform better (everyone else does too) and when they see a computer sitting on a desk, they don't get that hyped, and their performances and everyone else's do too... it's all psychological in perspective... if you feel you mix better with certain tools so be it. When doing ITB mixes we all have to remember that the headroom physics are different and you can't be slamming the hell out of the buss or we'll loose the definition and imaging that the summing devices are more forgiving to... that's all that's going on here.