Advice on best use of my mic collection for drum micing

[Kellog]

I have the following mics:
2- shure 57's
2 shure 58's
1 shure ksm 44
1 mxl gold v69 mogami
2 shure sm 81's
1 rode ntk
1 at 4033
1 at 4050
1 akg 414 bls
1 akg c1000s
1 beta 52
1 yamaha sub kik
1 gt am51
cad gxl 3000 and 1200
Ive been using : 57 on snare top. c1000s on snare bottom, beta 52 on kik and sub kik on kik, 4033 and 4050 on 1st and 2nd rack toms, mxl v69 on floor tom, 2 sm81's as overheads and gxl 1200 on hat.
I only have a peavey vmp2 and art tube mp as pre's, so I don't use them- I'm usually tracking gtrs and bass thru them along with drums. So I run the drum mics into my motu 896 inputs and straight to DP 6.
Everything works, sounds 'ok'. The drums sound a bit "70's kinda dead to me, even after comp and gating in the box. So I wondered if anyone has any other mic choices with my arsenal I may not have thought of for a bigger sound. Mostly I find the overheads are only good for the cymbals, the 'whole kit sound' is not what I've heard some people build their sound around. Perhaps the sm81's are placed to high?
My room is 16' x 25' with 8' ceiling (treated above the drum area, carpeted floor, treatment at all wall ceiling corners and all corners and 1st reflection points at and above monitor position. Long post, any takers greatly appreciated, Kelly

[BradLyons]

Your mics are fine, but understand that the pres do have A LOT to do with the drum sound. For example, an SM57 on snare through a Presonus ADL600 has a great deal of warmth and punch while that same mic on that same snare through the pre on the 896HD....well, it won't. It will be clean, but that's what a good pre does. As to the mics, you have a good selection.

For starters the GXL3000 is just too big to use on hi hate, that's where your SM81 would be better served. Personally, I do like to mic both the hi hat AND the ride, it doesn't mean that I have to use them later--but I can't use what isn't there if you know what I mean. I'd consider the following:

Beta52 on the kick, or the Rode NTK (that makes a great kick mic!)
SM57 on top of the snare
AT4033 on the bottom of the snare
SM81 Hi Hat
SM81 Ride

Here is the problem...OVERHEADS. You have some good mics with the KSM44, AT4050, and the C414.....but only one. You could use SM81's for that, but they don't give a lot of low definition and then well, you lost your hat and rides. And since you don't have mics you can use for toms, you're going to really need that in the overheads and well---overheads are SO important to the drum mix! I did a concert recently where I used a Blue MOUSE on kick and a Royer SF24 on the overheads, that was it. Those 3-channels sounded great! Now if that were in the studio, I would have mik'ed the hi hat and ride for sure.....

I'd consider another Shure KSM44 if you can.... those are killer mics over a drum kit. Or even better, buy a set of Earthworks TC20's (you'll thank me later!) for the OH's. OR to save some money, stick another SM57 on the bottom of the snare and add another AT4033 to match up with the one you have for overheads.

[Kellog]

Thanks Brad for the detailed input. In a nutshell would you say that my 4033 and 4050 are not good tom mics- or would be better suited (if they were in pairs) as overheads? And the SM 81's are good for cymbals but not full kit representation as overheads? Then, what are good affordable tom mics? I know a producer in nashville that has 57's on his toms (but some secret pres to run them through)! Thanks again, Kelly

[BradLyons]

Those mics will work on toms.....however they are big, bulky, pick up more than you might want, and well do you really want them to get hit by a drummer's sticks? Several years ago I purchased the Audix DP5 package for my church only to learn the next day that our drummer (whose acoustic kit was there) had a job offer moving him across the country right away. So we put our TD10 VDrum kit back in and I took the mics home. Ironically enough I was in the process of tracking down a set of Premier Signia drums, found them, and purchased. I had always used Sennheiser MD421's on toms but figured I'd give these a try..... I was quite impressed! Now to be fair I was also using a Focusrite Red1 to patch them through SM57's will work, but certainly not a preference of mine. The attack is fine, the sustain is blah. That's why it works fine on snare, you don't need that sustain like you do on toms. I must say that the Audix D2's and D4's are just fine. You might want to check out the Audix DP4A kit which includes (2) D2's (High and Mid Toms) and a D4 for low toms. It also includes their i5 mic....think SM57, but more clarity to it. In addition, there are (4) DFlex mounts include (these are cool mounts!) and a nice case. I'm more than happy with them! I'm going to upload a couple of files for you to listen to that I tracked.

[BradLyons]

This is a full mix (live)..... I used (3) Audix D2's, a D4 and a D6. The snare was an Audix i5 on the top with an AT4033 underneath actually, I THINK! There's quite a bit of snare and tom work in there. It's not totally isolated because it is live, but these mics take up very little space. The pres/converters were those on a Digidesign Venue DShow console

http://www.audioandmidi.com/audio_files ... Praise.mp3

And this one is in the studio, raw tracks.... and some bad drum playing, just to give you an idea. This was entirely a Focusrite ISA828

http://www.audioandmidi.com/audio_files/drums1.mp3

[Kellog]

I like the tom sounds in the rawer 2nd mix you posted. As you said I couldn't discern the drums very well in the 1st mix, but I like the bass sound in the live praise track a lot! I'll check into the audix pak you mentioned, then I could try my at-40xx mics as overheads maybe. Really appreciate your thoughts Brad, Kelly

[BradLyons]

FYI my bass player there is Mariah Carey's bass player, he's good

[mhschmieder]

Hmm, this took several reads, as there's a lot here, but I think Brad's original reply was very helpful and focused on the initial points made about the overall drum sound from the overheads. I think the toms discussion is a slight distraction from that, even though that area of the sound may need to be worked on separately.

It is a shame that you don't have matched mics, as you have a good collection overall. I'm not familiar enough with the differences between the AT4050 and AT4033 to know if they would work well together, but it doesn't hurt to try! I don't own either mic but have considered them in the past and have heard plenty of recordings with them to know that they are well-suited to the task of OH's (and many other purposes).

So I don't think you necessarily need to spend any more money at this point in time, until running a couple more experiments (if you have the opportunity to do so in a space that you know and trust).

The MOTU 896 mic pre's are pretty good -- I owned that unit for awhile, and foolishly sold it to go for the mLAN approach, which stalled me for two years as I could never get it to work without glitches. When I got back into standard firewire, I saved money with the 828 mk II, then upgraded to Fireface 800 but got a lifetime purchase of an octal mic pre-amp. You don't have the budget for that, so don't worry, as the 896 actually has mid-range quality mic pre-amps, better than most digital audio interfaces but obviously not as good as dedicated pre-amps.

I'm focusing on tom tom mics myself at the moment, which is why I saw this thread, but read every reply several times before replying, as it became clear that tom toms aren't really the main concern of the OP at this point in time -- though at least tom mics are cheap and might be worth prioritising for that reason alone, compared to an actual matched pair for OH's, which are quite pricey.

I was quite surprised from my own session last weekend, to find what a good job the hi-hat mic did of helping the rest of the kit blend well. It made up for my forgetting to loop the overhead mics from the back of their dedicated mic pre-amp to the front of the RME Fireface for its "extra" two channels (9-10 -- channels 1-8 are permanently connected inside the rack to the octal mic-preamp from True Precision).

[mhschmieder]

Just as I thought I'd settled on the Beyerdynamic Opus 88's for toms, I came across several discussions of the Audio Technica ATM450 Side Address Microphone for that purpose, and became convinced enough of its likely superiority that I ordered one tonight. If it works out well on snare and/or toms, I'll order up to three more. They're quite cheap ($169 on sale), but have higher noise rejection than the Opus series and are easier to place on drums than the AT4051's (great for overheads).

Many rave about the ATM450 as Drum Overheads as well, which would pertain directly to the OP. I had been intrigued by this mic for some time, but wasn't sure of its applications until today, as I had read so little about it.

After many listening tests at drum mic shootout websites (most of them blind-handicapped), I have become convinced that condensers will give me more of the sound I'm looking for on toms and possibly even snare (obviating the need for a bottom mic on the latter). So I really look forward to trying the ATM450 and am glad I was persistent rather than ordering any of my earlier choices.

I also plan to buy a pair of AT4051's as overheads later on. Maybe not for drums, but the recordings I have heard of flute and piano, and other chamber settings for classical music, made my heart melt. A very honest mic, and almost silky. You can also buy it as a hyper-cardioid or omni (AT4053 and AT4052 IIRC), or add those capsules for $200 each.

As for the ATM450's, they are small and easy to place, and instill more confidence than gooseneck or clamp mic designs, in terms of longevity as well as design trade-offs for miniaturisation. They haven't been reviewed much in the press for some reason -- I could only find an Electronic Musician review, which was glowing but with caveats about not substituting it for high-end mics in contexts where you would normally go for a ribbon mic, a Nuemann, etc. But we're talking drums here .

[mhschmieder]

Oops, I had accidentally inverted two of the comparisons I had done, which is easy in a blindfold test when lining up the answers later on. It's actually the Beyerdynamic MC930's that I find so lovely and natural on flute, piano, trumpet, string quartet, etc.

So in fact if I were to buy an Audio Technica AT40xx series mic (or matched pair), then Drum OH's, Room OH's, or Ambient OH's would probably be the targeted usage after all.

I would call any of those mics perfectly serviceable as serious recording mics -- especially if you already own them. But I don't see such a huge pricce differential vs. MC930, Earthworks, etc., to necessarily warrant the AT choice if one wants the most versatile quality OH's (I use stereo OH for most acoustic and chamber settings as well as for drums, but many people will only be interested in drums when it comes to OH's).

The AT4051 seems slightly veiled compared to MC930 or Neumann KM184 (though I am about to take the latter off my long list of desired mics, as I keep noticing an unpleasant 8 kHz boost that grates on me, and the other well-known mid-to-high-end OH mics seem to kick in around 12 kHz or higher, where it is less of a problem in most contexts).

[Kellog]

Hey mschneider, thanks for your time and thoughts. My understanding of the at 4050 and 4033 is that they are very similar, except the 4050 has multi-patterns. So I'm gonna try em as overheads (in cardioid). I may try some of the suggested audix D2's and D4, or I may spring for some used Senn MD421's (all for toms) and see what I get.Let u know when I get to experimenting!

[jerkrecords]

SM57's will work, but certainly not a preference of mine. The attack is fine, the sustain is blah. That's why it works fine on snare, you don't need that sustain like you do on toms.

are you suggesting that the microphone has "sustain" (or in this case lack of sustain)?
this is just plain silly... the drum, it's head, tuning and room have 10,000 times more influence on the overall drum sound than choosing between a 57 and whatever else. "sustain" is not an attribute of the mic.

-pete

[BradLyons]

Pete,

What I'm referring to is the way at which a microphone captures attack v/s sustain. It's like a dynamic microphone on a choir---it doesn't work well v/s a condenser. There is more clarity of a condenser v/s a dynamic on a tom which is a plus---however there is a downside and that is attack isn't the same as a dynamic. So it's a user preference at that point. Personally, I do prefer dynamics on toms....some prefer condensers. But the reality is that there are different sounds on various dynamics....for the same reasons.

[mhschmieder]

The heavy metal drummer that I'm about to record, did a drums-only session with me last Sunday as a test. We ran through every applicable mic that I have, including my most recent purchase of the AT450 side address condenser mic.

I was quite surprised to found that I MUCH preferred dynamics on the toms as well as snare. I thought in his style, we'd want more detail and more tonality, as well as more brightness (to avoid needing a bottom snare mic).

Well, condensers are more detailed, but at least the ones in my collection didn't seem to have as much "snap" as the good dynamics, and that ended up being more important.

In particular, my ATM25 that I use on the floor tom, was the PERFECT mic for the rack toms. Too bad it's no longer available and impossible to find on eBay. That forced me to spend a huge number of hours once again researching the ATM250, which I finally concluded will probably exhibit near-identical properties to the ATM25 on the rack toms.

Unfortunately I got yet another couple of "surprises" this week when insurance decided not to pay my doctor, so it's going to be a few weeks before I have a chance to order and try out these mics and verify that they are a worthy successor to the ATM25.

The ATM25 is an absolutely amazing and miraculous mic. My Sweetwater rep told me that the reason AT cycles their product line is so they don't get trapped like Shure did by being "known" for stuff like the SM57 and then not being "allowed" to innovate and go forward.

Well, I sort of see that, but they should at least make the migration path public on their website. After all, people go to sessions and then want to buy the same or similar mic that they encounter, or need more than one of something later on and are left in the dark.

At any rate, the ATM25 gives a fat sound to the toms, capturing the impact very strongly but not trailing off right away like most other mics. I call this a "deep" sound. It's also both dark and warm, which I characterise as a "woody" sound. Nothing else comes close to this mic!

On snare, by far my favourite is still the Beyerdynamic M201TG. It has the most snap to it, but doesn't capture much of the wire sound. I think the hi-hat condensor mic will capture some of that though.

Nothing comes close to the E/V ND868 on kick drum, except for two mics I thought about but decided not to bother with (Beyerdynamic Opus series -- I forget the model number for the kick drum -- and Sennheiser's e901 boundary mic for kick).

I am really excited that I have now used the same mics on heavy metal, light pop, alt-rock, and everything in between, and other than for some slight changes in priority regarding overheads, bottom snare mics, close-miking rack toms, I have a setup that works reliably in broad categories of music (in conjunction with using my ears ).

I haven't recorded live jazz or light folk or related genres that focus more on nuanced dynamics in a long time, but suspect I would switch to more of a condenser mic setup in such situations, to get more of the detail in the sound and not having to worry about suffering some slight deadening of the impact and transients.

I am still considering a pair of AT4053's for overheads, but will continue using my Shure KSM141's for now. I've decided not to ever buy multi-pattern mics again as I feel they are less bang-for-buck as design compromises are made. Yet the AT4053 is essentially a multi-pattern mic as you can make it an AT4051 or AT4052 simply by replacing the front capsule. So maybe this should not be a rigid rule.

[mhschmieder]

I've been too busy to read or post here lately, so hope I picked the most appropriate thread for followup on drum miking.

My first ATM250 arrived last week and we tried it on a rack tom and a low tom. We added it to the earlier comparisons that included the discontinued ATM25.

Wow! This is an incredible mic, and an amazing bargain at roughly $129 on discount. It apparently isn't very popular vs. the Dual Element version.

The ATM250 has WAY more detail than the ATM25 on rack toms, and almost sounds like a condensor mic. It is slightly warm, but transparent, and preserves the attack and decay quite well, without any nasty resonance.

On the floor tom, the ATM25 still wins out. Although slightly less detailed, it better captured the deeper attack of the low tom, and is slightly warmer without being at all veiled. It too avoids any nasty resonance or unwanted ring from the after-hit and the drum head.

I ordered three more ATM250's to make sure I have enough for a four-tom rack, as I expect this mic will be discontinued soon like the ATM25 was.

I am also on the watch for a used ATM25 for cases where a drummer uses two low/floor toms simultaneously, but most drummers swap one for the other based on the song vs. using both at once.

The ATM25 is very difficult to come by, and when it does show up on eBay, usually it's outside the US, and I refuse to do international deals after a few that "went south" a few years back.

It is quite surprising how much more detailed the ATM250 mic is, as it weighs less than half the ATM25. This also makes it easy to place over the rack toms, along with its new shape that has a narrow neck.

I cannot recommend these mics highly enough. I have tried a LOT of mic models on toms, including the venerable Sennheiser MD421 mk II, but I find the latter a bit veiled and, while workable, far from ideal and not as detailed as I like. Short of going to a condensor with all of the problems that entails (including positioning -- which is why I rejected the well-loved CAD79's), the ATM250 is as good as it gets.