Networking MTP AV Parallel Port (MOTU's response)

[gandalf_grey91]

After 7 weeks of being asked questions by MOTU technical support, this is what they say about networking two parallel port versions of the MIDI Timepiece AV under Windows:

"Upon further investigation, networking two MTPAV's will only work in Windows XP if the unit connected to your computer is an MTPAV USB, not parallel model. Under Windows 2000, your configuration will work. You may want to connect both devices to a parallel port, revert to an earlier version of Windows, or daisy-chain your MIDI devices so that less than 9 MIDI ports are needed."

So, allegedly, using one USB version and one parallel version, with the USB version the one that is connected to the PC, should work.

PCs only have one parallel port and all modern (PCI interface) parallel port cards use ECP mode and do not have the ability to configure to work on SPP or EPP only. Parallel ports in ECP mode confuse the MOTU Windows drivers and devices detect as "PC Flyer" devices. So, not really a solution.

Windows 2000? Not sure about that. I think I tried that already and it had the same problem.

And daisy-chaining (or using MIDI Thru) on MIDI devices, adds a digital delay making devices connected to MIDI Thru ports of other MIDI devices respond noticably later. Why did I buy two MTP AVs? Oh yes, so that I wouldn't have to use MIDI Thru ports. So, not really a solution.

Any MIDI Timepiece AV and Windows XP users have any thoughts/experiences they would like to share on all this?

[1nput0utput]

Computers being built today don't even have parallel ports. Maybe it's time to upgrade.

[gandalf_grey91]

Its true, some computers being built today don't have parallel ports but you seem to have totally missed the point that MOTU's manual supplied with the MIDI Timepiece AV claimed that networking two parallel port versions would work under Windows OS but it never did. It was a lie.

I wonder how many of the other "facts" stated in manuals of MOTU's other products we can trust?

Ok, 1nput0utput, it appears I could use your advice. I need a MIDI interface that will provide a minimum of 16-in/16-out MIDI ports, under Windows OS, as well as all the other sync and timecode generation options offered by the MIDI Timepiece AV. What would you suggest I upgrade to?

[1nput0utput]

Its true, some computers being built today don't have parallel ports but you seem to have totally missed the point that MOTU's manual supplied with the MIDI Timepiece AV claimed that networking two parallel port versions would work under Windows OS but it never did. It was a lie.

I wonder how many of the other "facts" stated in manuals of MOTU's other products we can trust?

Ok, 1nput0utput, it appears I could use your advice. I need a MIDI interface that will provide a minimum of 16-in/16-out MIDI ports, under Windows OS, as well as all the other sync and timecode generation options offered by the MIDI Timepiece AV. What would you suggest I upgrade to?

As you said in your first post, what you need to make this happen is one USB model MTP-AV.

[James Steele]

Its true, some computers being built today don't have parallel ports but you seem to have totally missed the point that MOTU's manual supplied with the MIDI Timepiece AV claimed that networking two parallel port versions would work under Windows OS but it never did. It was a lie.

I wonder how many of the other "facts" stated in manuals of MOTU's other products we can trust?

Ok, 1nput0utput, it appears I could use your advice. I need a MIDI interface that will provide a minimum of 16-in/16-out MIDI ports, under Windows OS, as well as all the other sync and timecode generation options offered by the MIDI Timepiece AV. What would you suggest I upgrade to?

Is he suggesting a newer Windows computer. I mean, hey, a good MOTU bashing is what this whole board is for, right? I mean, right? But parallel MIDI interfaces are pretty much dead aren't they... along with computers that still have those ports? What was the last year that righteous indignation over this problem was slightly plausible? I'd like to know.

[1nput0utput]

But parallel MIDI interfaces are pretty much dead aren't they... along with computers that still have those ports?

That was exactly my point. Parallel devices in general are dinosaurs. Windows Vista was released almost three years ago, and it doesn't support parallel devices at all. Likewise, Apple dropped support for serial devices with OS X, and that was released in 2001.

[gandalf_grey91]

You have got to be kidding! The site administrator is now taking time to join in the attack on me for posting about a MOTU device he considers "pretty much dead". What kind of forum is this? Did I miss the line in the forum rules that says you can only post about MOTU devices manufactured in the last 2 years? By the same token, does anyone consider valves and discrete electronics to be "pretty much dead"?

I only posted my experience and MOTU's explanation because I thought someone on this forum might find it useful.
Thanks for making me feel so unwelcome.

[James Steele]

You have got to be kidding! The site administrator is now taking time to join in the attack on me for posting about a MOTU device he considers "pretty much dead". What kind of forum is this? Did I miss the line in the forum rules that says you can only post about MOTU devices manufactured in the last 2 years? By the same token, does anyone consider valves and discrete electronics to be "pretty much dead"?

I only posted my experience and MOTU's explanation because I thought someone on this forum might find it useful.
Thanks for making me feel so unwelcome.

Attack?? I don't know why you need to take it so personally. As site administrator I allow all sorts of criticism of MOTU on this board-- just look around. But your hyperventilation about a situation that only occurs when networking two rather ancient interfaces in a situation few would encounter rings hollow. I think you're being overly dramatic about it. You expressed your opinion and I expressed mine.

If you like, perhaps I can create a forum for you called "MOTU (Obsolete) Hardware & Windows?" FYI, this is not a company-run board and I'm allowed to call it like I see it and you seem to be making a mountain out of a mole hill.

[bamim2]

I have used two Parallel port MTP AV networked together under Windows XP for many years. It has worked perfectly for me for, well since right after XP came out. Unfortunately, I bought a new PC (yes, it does have an parallel port) a month ago and now I can't seem to get the Windows software to see the second MTP. The MOTU software sees them both, but the apps (Sonar, Pro Tools etc) only see the first one.

Does anyone know how I can get a hold of the manual for the Parallel port version of MTP AV? I didn't see one on the MOTU web site.

[James Steele]

I have used two Parallel port MTP AV networked together under Windows XP for many years. It has worked perfectly for me for, well since right after XP came out. Unfortunately, I bought a new PC (yes, it does have an parallel port) a month ago and now I can't seem to get the Windows software to see the second MTP. The MOTU software sees them both, but the apps (Sonar, Pro Tools etc) only see the first one.

Does anyone know how I can get a hold of the manual for the Parallel port version of MTP AV? I didn't see one on the MOTU web site.

Thanks for posting. This is really interesting. Perhaps parallel ports on newer PCs have some difference in how they are implemented that MOTU couldn't have accounted for back when they designed the parallel MTP AV? Using it for printers, etc. may be just fine, but it won't reveal problems with MIDI etc. I have a couple of "newish" Dell laptops that include a parallel port and am grateful as I use a specialized app that requires a parallel dongle. I could buy a USB dongle from the company now, but I didn't want to have to.

As for your question about a manual... you should contact MOTU directly. I'd try the "sales" line first as it's easier to get through and say you want to BUY a manual and maybe they'll help you that way. They may still have copies laying around somewhere. Otherwise you'll have to call their tech support number and you'll get a lot of busy signals and you may have to re-dial for a very long time.

[gandalf_grey91]

Hi bamim2,

Can you please post as much technical infomation about your system, hardware and software, (when all 16 MIDI ports worked) as possible? I'm still talking to MOTU and want to try to pin them down on what they know and are not saying.

Thanks

[gandalf_grey91]

With regards to the manual, the clockworks manual is available for download on the motu website. You need to register to download it. MOTU was apparently selling the MTP AV manual, around the middle of last year (August 2008), for $20.
Don't know if this included delivery. And extracts from the MTP II manual have been posted on a few forums on the net, if you go searching, they might be of some use.

[bamim2]

Hi bamim2,

Can you please post as much technical infomation about your system, hardware and software, (when all 16 MIDI ports worked) as possible? I'm still talking to MOTU and want to try to pin them down on what they know and are not saying.

Thanks

I've set it up and gotten it working on two or three PCs with XP. I just (as in a few hours ago) got it working on the PC I was having problems with. Here's what you need to know to get this working...

I had to do the hard reset on them to make sure they start over from their factory defaults. That's one reason I needed the manual. I "think" the hard reset is with the unit powered off, "hold down the Panic button while you power the unit on".

Setup everything for Windows XP & the LPT port the way MOTU driver driver installation program says. I suggest you reserve IRQ 7 & IO address 378 for the LPT port. This driver is from the days when those were THE LTP port settings & that was that. I suggest you keep things as standard as possible.

Setup the BIOS to work as Bi-directional.

The MTP-AV hardware setup is:
* Make sure you have them both set for PC with the push button.
* Plug in "network cable" to join them together.
** Plug the LPT cable from your PC into the LOWER MTP. The one with the LPT cable MUST be manually setup up as channels 1-8. The other settings are just common sense. Set if for Net, MTP, MTP-AV ID #20 (the exact number doesn't matter, but it must be unique).
* Set the upper one as channels 9-16, Net, MTP, MTP-AV ID #21.
* Power them both off.
* Power them both on.
* Check their settings again to make sure things stayed put. I've found that to be a problem with mine over the years.

Don't let anyone at MOTU (or anywhere else) tell you that this doesn't work. I've been using mine for almost 10 years now. It takes some fiddling around, but it DOES work.

cheers.

[gandalf_grey91]

Bi-directional is not an option in the BIOS, it only has SPP, EPP, ECP and EPP+ECP. Which do you suggest?
Either ECP setting screws up the driver detection phase and it trys to install the crazy "PC Flyer" thing.
SPP or EPP allow the MTP AVs to work OK. IRQ 7 and IO address 378 are my current settings.

Just to clarify, I don't know if I am misunderstanding, but there is no "Net" setting. Under the "Global Hardware Setup" menu, there is only channel setting (1-8 or 9-16), net port setting (MTP or MAC) and "MMC device ID# (a number). The way you are writing this is as if there are 4 things to set up, is that right? And if so, where is the fourth setting I'm missing?

Neither of the "Net" lights on the front of the units is lit.

Followed your instructions up to "Power them both off" (which should be turned off/on first?), second unit refuses to save settings. Have changed battery, still will not save settings. Setup again and after all that still only have first 8 MIDI ports available in Windows/Cubase etc. but 16 in Clockworks.

This is driving me mad.

[bamim2]

That's the MOTU. It's all a plot. They mark you with the Unicorn, then they'll be back later to collect all the mad folks and take them off to Unicorn land...

Ok. Lot's of questions so let me see if I can help. First, let's try leaving the LPT settings in the BIOS alone and focus on both MTP-AVs. You have to manually set both MTP-AV up for networking via the knobs on the front panel(s).

Start by rotating the knob on the far right until you see "Global Hardware Setup" in the display. I suggest doing both systems "at the same time". I don't mean put your left hand on one MTP & right hand on the other, I mean tweak the knob on the first one until you get to "Global...", then tweak the knob on the other one until you get to "Global...".

This is a good time to remind you that the MTP that you have your LPT cable plugged into MUST be setup as channels 1-8.

Back to the knobs. With both systems' display reading "Global Hardware Setup" go to the one with the LPT cable plugged into it & tweak the second knob from the right one "notch" & the display reads "Mac Xmit..." (I don't think this setting matters because it's for a Mac, so on to the next one). Tweak it one more notch & it reads "This Box ID". Now go to the other MTP & do the same thing. Tweak the 2nd knob from the right two notches until you get to the "This Box ID" setting in the display.

Set the MTP that's got the LPT cable that connects to your PC as '1-8' for "This Box ID".
Set the other MTP as '9-16' for "This Box ID".

You set the numbers by tweaking the knob to the far left one notch at a time (don't shoot me, I didn't invent this crazy way of modifying the MTP. I just figured it out) to make the setting go up or down. That will change the setting as 1-8 or 9-16. Note that there's a good chance that you'll tweak the wrong knob some place along the line, so you'll most likely have to start over. It's hard to remember which knob to tweak, so you'll tweak the wrong one and screw it up. That's just part of the fun. On the positive side, it usually stays put once you get this working...

Now back to the fun.The MTP that's plugged into your PC is 1-8 and the other one is 9-16. Make sure you do one notch on one, then set the value, then one notch on the other and set the value, since you're setting up ID numbers for each MTP.

Tweak the second knob from the right one more notch and you'll see "Net Port =". It could be set to Mac or MPT, so make sure you set it for MTP by tweaking the knob to the far left. The knob on the far left is the increment/decrement knob & the 2nd knob from the right scrolls you through the access to the settings. It's quite convoluted, but it does work.

Make sure you set both MPT-AVs to MTP/Net. Tweak the knob second from the right one more notch until you see "MMC device ID". It may be set to ADAT or MTP-AV. Make sure you set it to MTP-AV.

Tweak one more notch until you get the "ID number". Set the lower MTP to ID#20 & the upper one to ID #21. They can probably be any unique number, but make it simple. The default ID is 20, but they can't both be 20.

Now you tweak one more notch & go passed the ID number. Then press the "Enter" button on the MTP-AV write the settings & you're "done". I suggest powering off both MTP & then power the lower number one on, then they higher number one. They should have retained the settings. If they didn't, try doing the whole procedure again. If it STILL doesn't work power off both MTP & press the Panic Button & power on the unit.

Now run the LPT Refresh program to refresh things. Then run the Time Piece software & make sure you see all 16 ports.

This is probably quite confusing, but I wrote a line, then ran into the studio to check the accuraccy of my writing so this should be accurate.

Let me know if this works for you. Good luck.