Question for Magic Dave

[csiaudio]

Hi Magic hopefully you will see this.

At Sweetwater Sound recently they had a seminar with a well respected sound engineer and he talked about how DAW level metering is not accurate and that the biggest problem with DAW's is that we are going in to the DAW way to hot with our signals. When this happens and done with multiple tracks when mixing the audio collapses effecting the stereo image et cetera. He said that you should not go into the DAW hotter than -18 db.

So, with that here is my question: How accurate is DP6's metering...is it approximate as he is claiming?

And any others with thoughts on this?

Thanks Magic!

[magicd]

So, with that here is my question: How accurate is DP6's metering...is it approximate as he is claiming?

With VU metering on a computer screen, you have a number of variables.

You have the numerical calibration and what those numbers represent.

You have the ballistics of the meter. The computer screen has limitations in terms of update resolution and latency.

You have RMS vs peak measurements.

Yes, the meters in DP are accurate (within the capabilities of the computer monitor screen). What the meters are measuring is amplitude within samples, and that is absolute.

If you want the most accurate level metering, use the Trim plug in, or the metering in the MW Limiter. The Trim plug in allows you to zoom in on gain ranges, and also has a peak/hold function. The MW Limiter also has RMS measurements.

In terms of recording level in DP, you check that in the Audio Monitor window.

Respectfully, I disagree that signal should be recorded into a DAW at -18db. Since I don't know exactly what was said at the Sweetwater seminar, I can't respond much further than that.

What I can tell you is that because of the 32 bit float data path, DP has roughly 1500 db of internal headroom. If you record signals at lower levels, you reduce the dynamic range of the signal. Therefore I record hot. I'm not obsessive about recording right up to the digital zero, but my transients are usually within 3db of peak input.

I am a big subscriber to "trust your ears". My ears tell me I get better signal when I record hot at 24 bits. I have never heard any kind of stereo imaging problems due to recording levels in a DAW. Maybe I've just been lucky:D

Dave

[XYZ]

Terrific response Dave!

I've been getting my best results by recording colder than I did with tape. I have been using DPs meter bridge and keep everything green--that seems to work well for me.[/u]

[michkhol]

Bob Katz in his book says that for the biggest dynamic impact the 0VU should be set at -20dBFS and the recording average (RMS) level should not exceed -20dBFS. It depends on the material of course but -12dBFS RMS is the hottest he recommends. The digital dynamic range at -20dBFS still exceeds the analog one in the best recording equipment. Also for the best quality your analog gear should have the headroom at least 20dB without distortion. It means that if you really hear difference between hot and soft recordings at 24 bits, something is wrong with your analog path and/or converters.

[csiaudio]

The collapse occurs when you are slamming your converters thus effecting the hamonics of the signal. And as Dave mentioned because your monitor can't update the meter level quick enough for something like a snare attack the audio is actually going in hotter than what the meter reads.

According to this source at the seminar the engineers that do national release work know to keep an eye on this level going in and obviously since most are using exceptional front end equipment those two combo's alone help make for a great sounding album...of course until it gets to mastering in most cases.

I would like to hear more input from people who are much smarter than I....so chime in!

[XYZ]

Yes. I've been mixing around -12 to -14 on the final mix and this just rocks.

Unfortunately, the volume wars continue to crush this down to -6 dB or less for typical recordings.

For digital, be careful that you distinguish VU, from RMS, from digital peak from Actual peak [actual peak will usually be slightly higher than digital peak]. The averaging time for VU and RMS make a difference also.

[Henry Robinett]

I have a problem recording levels too low. I do a lot of multi track live, real time recording where I have to nudge tracks to get them in phase with one another.

When the signal is too low I can't SEE other sounds in most tracks. For instance, I like to use a loud snare pop to line up the trumpet, sax, vocals, acoustic piano mics and guitar mics, let alone the drums.

The last session we did the levels were exceptionally low, for me, probably -18 to -20dbs. Even with adjusting he gain level, which I thought would handle it. I couldn't see.

I know this is borderline OT for this subject. But I like to recording approx -6, but often have to compromise at -10.

[csiaudio]

Possibly the little do hicky that increases/decreases the wave form size would help you. It looks like a tiny, tiny magnify glass on each track.

[michkhol]

The last session we did the levels were exceptionally low, for me, probably -18 to -20dbs. Even with adjusting he gain level, which I thought would handle it. I couldn't see.

You can use the sound wave zoom feature to _see_ it in the track. Gain has nothing to do with the visual representation.

[chadd]

Henry, have you tried using DP's vertical zoom? You should be able to get the waveform to fill the track's vertical space in the sequence editor, even if the level is really low.

[XYZ]

Yes, I believe that is what I believe csiaudio was also referring to.

However, Recording too cold does increase noise [but noise can be good], and does decrease dynamic range. I shoot for -6 to -10 and usually get -3 peaks.

[OldTimey]

Possibly the little do hicky that increases/decreases the wave form size would help you. It looks like a tiny, tiny magnify glass on each track.

This works ok, but the visual representation of the waveform (at least in DP 4.61) doesn't interpolate very well, and it gets all jagged edged and ugly. Other DAWs do this better.

It's important to watch your meters going into a daw, sure, but really just to make sure you aren't going to write a file that clips digital zero. The meters you really want to pay attention to are the ones on your pres (if they have) and the ones on your DAC (most important probably). Overloading your pre, usually isn't good, but overloading your DAC, unless you are an experimental musician is very bad. Don't need to tell anyone here that.

Using more of your preamp's gain will change the tone and response of your mics. Where meters are most important is for making sure you have proper gain staging throughout the chain. that, and to just make sure you aren't clipping. But use your ears. Maybe you want a rough, edgy sound for that rock vocal...push your pres to the edge. Maybe you want to capture every nuance of a violin solo...low noise, high headroom pres are a must here.

[Henry Robinett]

Possibly the little do hicky that increases/decreases the wave form size would help you. It looks like a tiny, tiny magnify glass on each track.

I'm sorry. I guess I wasn't clear. Yes, I use that all the time. But when the waveform is so small, the distant sources aren't visually represented well enough for the zoom to pick it up.

I regularly zoom all the way in to match waveforms.

[Henry Robinett]

Just to be more clear - I'm not talking about the waveform of the main instrument of the track. I'm talking about the other instruments in the background. In other words the snare coming through on the piano mic, so I can line them up. If the wave form on the piano track, OF THE PIANO, is really, really low, there's little hope of visually seeing the snare, or the sax or guitar, unless they are playing exceptionally loud and there's poor isolation.

And yes, it tends to be spikey, jagged and of little use.

[tripit@earthlink.net]

Hi Magic hopefully you will see this.

At Sweetwater Sound recently they had a seminar with a well respected sound engineer and he talked about how DAW level metering is not accurate and that the biggest problem with DAW's is that we are going in to the DAW way to hot with our signals. When this happens and done with multiple tracks when mixing the audio collapses effecting the stereo image et cetera. He said that you should not go into the DAW hotter than -18 db.

So, with that here is my question: How accurate is DP6's metering...is it approximate as he is claiming?

And any others with thoughts on this?

Thanks Magic!

You should not record hot into digital for a number of well documented reasons. The main one being that you can easily have intersample transients that spike up beyond what your meters show. These are ultra fast spikes, that build up and create a harshness and brittle edge to the sound. You won't see them in the meter unless you have a meter that offers intersample metering. This may be what he was referring to. Many guys mixing in PT or what ever app actually check meters with a plug that offers intersample levels.

Most pro's will tell you that as a general rule you should keep your hottest level peak at -6db. Many guys go for -9 or even -12. Lower is better. You get absolutely no benefit from hot levels in digital.

Also, as is misconception amongst many, digital does not need to make use of the full level. Analog, was a different story. The noise levels in analog were much higher than digital, therefore you had to stay hot to make the most out of keeping the noise floor down. Some people wrongly believe that you need to fill all the "bits' in digital, which again is completely wrong.