DP6 Track Selector changes and some window beefs…

[zed]

Hey folks,

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EDIT >>> My main complaint about the Track Selector changes turn out to have been a false alarm. It is not an issue, as Daveyboy has so wisely corrected further down in this thread. MOTU did allow for the DP5 style of the Track Selector in the preferences: Preferences > Edit Windows > Always opens the edit window's Track Selector
I'm so sorry to have cried wolf about this particular thing. I should have explored further before posting this issue. :oops::oops: Thank you MOTU for including that preference!
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As much as I didn't want to have to contribute to the complaints about DP6, I'm afraid I do have several beefs and disappointments of my own.

There are DEFINITELY some great new additions, which will aid in a more efficient workflow. Unfortunately, there are other changes and additions that I believe are going to hinder workflow, and some GUI aspects which are very distracting and may also impede workflow.

Let me start by posting an image of a simple project in DP5.

Please note the following:

a) The Track Selector section at the left side of the graphic editor window is a part of the graphic editor window. This Track Selector list relates to the graphic editor and therefore remains connected to the graphic editor.
b) The background of the graphic editor is light grey, and the contrast between the "white keys" and the darker grey "black keys" is very soft and unobtrusive.
(c) In the tracks window, the blocks have the colour of the track in the form of a little sliver of color at the top of the track.
(d) The consolidated window tabs are smaller, less wide, and justified to the right of the layout, so that the presence of the tabs and the words on them do not conflict with the legibility of the text below them in the tracks window.



Now let's take a look at the same project in DP6.

Please note the following:

(a) When you click on the Track Selector button at the bottom left of the graphic editor window, the track selector now opens up in a separate consolidated window...
EDIT >>> But this is only a default preference which can be changed. As noted above, this is no longer an issue. Preferences > Edit Windows will allow you the option to have the DP5 style Track Selector. Thanks daveyboy!!
(b) The background of the editor window is white with grey lines denoting the "black keys". The contrast is now over the top and the horizontal lines seem more distracting. This is much more noticeable, again, when you are looking at a much bigger section of the edit window on a big screen... it doesn't look so bad in this screen capture. I am not sure I mind the white so much, but I would like the ability to either lighten the darker grey, or darken the light areas so that the contrast is not so stark.
(c) In the tracks window the blocks are now fully coloured in a pastel version of the main track colour. To my eyes this is distracting and a little tacky looking. I would like some options with regards to how the tracks in the tracks window are viewed. I would rather see them more like they were before, although it might be nice for the sliver of colour on top to utilize these more muted pastel colours of DP6. Options would be great.
(d) The consolidated window tabs are now bigger, and wider, and justify to the left. Admittedly, there are now items below those tabs (on both the right and left side) so one side or the other might not be more conflicting than the other. But the fact that they are bigger and stretch longer, means that their presence is less easy to ignore.



Other initial discoveries included:
(1) So far, I haven't found DP6 to be any more snappy than DP5, and noticed no improvements in CPU usage. With just a couple of PLAY instruments loaded, and pre-rendering supposedly turned on, I still run into the red as much or more than the same project opened in DP5. I am not sure if I need to upgrade my OS version to take better advantage of pre-rendering efficiencies. Perhaps efficiencies will be noted more with plugins than with VIs, I don't know yet.
(2) SoundToys is not working. The knobs do not respond properly. I haven't checked all my plugins, but this is one that I use quite a lot. Perhaps the problem will suddenly disappear, as some others have reported... but that hasn't happened yet.
(3) I have to agree with others that the whiteness of the design is definitely causes an immediate increase in eye strain. I had to adjust the contrast of my monitor to cut it down a little. I think I like it a bit lighter than it was in DP5, but there should definitely be an option to lighten and darken the GUI without having to adjust your monitor.
(3) To end on a more positive note, there are lots of great improvements, which include the presence of a drop down list that shows up on any of your VIs revealing other VIs that are currently loaded. So in order to bring up a VI window that is hidden behind another you simply select it in the drop down list on the frontmost VI. Very easy and swift.

That's my initial report. Sorry it wasn't more glowing. I think I am going back to DP5 until some of this stuff is sorted out. It seems, so far, that both versions can live harmoniously on my system.

[blue]

(3) To end on a more positive note, there are lots of great improvements, which include the presence of a drop down list that shows up on any of your VIs revealing other VIs that are currently loaded. So in order to bring up a VI window that is hidden behind another you simply select it in the drop down list on the frontmost VI. Very easy and swift.

Hate to kill your positive note, but that feature has been in DP as long as I have been using it.

[Eleventh Hour Sound]

Hey folks,

As much as I didn't want to have to contribute to the complaints about DP6, I'm afraid I do have several beefs and disappointments of my own.

There are DEFINITELY some great new additions, which will aid in a more efficient workflow. Unfortunately, there are other changes and additions that I believe are going to hinder workflow, and some GUI aspects which are very distracting and may also impede workflow.

Let me start by posting an image of a simple project in DP5.

Please note the following:

a) The Track Selector section at the left side of the graphic editor window is a part of the graphic editor window. This Track Selector list relates to the graphic editor and therefore remains connected to the graphic editor.
b) The background of the graphic editor is light grey, and the contrast between the "white keys" and the darker grey "black keys" is very soft and unobtrusive.
(c) In the tracks window, the blocks have the colour of the track in the form of a little sliver of color at the top of the track.
(d) The consolidated window tabs are smaller, less wide, and justified to the right of the layout, so that the presence of the tabs and the words on them do not conflict with the legibility of the text below them in the tracks window.

Now let's take a look at the same project in DP6.

Please note the following:

(a) When you click on the Track Selector button at the bottom left of the graphic editor window, the track selector now opens up in a separate consolidated window (that's if your graphic editor is sharing a consolidated window with the tracks window or another main edit window). The result is that track selection is no longer connected with the edit window it is associated with. On this small screen version of the project I have captured, it might not look so disconcerting, but on a big screen, that Track Selector can end up being quite far removed from the edit window it is associated with. The only work-around I can find is to not include the Track Selector in the consolidated window list (in preferences) and then to have the Track Selector exist as a separate window, which is going to take some getting used to, and not very efficient, if you ask me. If, however, you do open graphic editor windows outside of a consolidated window, the track selector remains connected to it as in previous DP versions.
(b) The background of the editor window is white with grey lines denoting the "black keys". The contrast is now over the top and the horizontal lines seem more distracting. This is much more noticeable, again, when you are looking at a much bigger section of the edit window on a big screen... it doesn't look so bad in this screen capture. I am not sure I mind the white so much, but I would like the ability to either lighten the darker grey, or darken the light areas so that the contrast is not so stark.
(c) In the tracks window the blocks are now fully coloured in a pastel version of the main track colour. To my eyes this is distracting and a little tacky looking. I would like some options with regards to how the tracks in the tracks window are viewed. I would rather see them more like they were before, although it might be nice for the sliver of colour on top to utilize these more muted pastel colours of DP6. Options would be great.
(d) The consolidated window tabs are now bigger, and wider, and justify to the left. Admittedly, there are now items below those tabs (on both the right and left side) so one side or the other might not be more conflicting than the other. But the fact that they are bigger and stretch longer, means that their presence is less easy to ignore.


Other initial discoveries included:
(1) So far, I haven't found DP6 to be any more snappy than DP5, and noticed no improvements in CPU usage. With just a couple of PLAY instruments loaded, and pre-rendering supposedly turned on, I still run into the red as much or more than the same project opened in DP5. I am not sure if I need to upgrade my OS version to take better advantage of pre-rendering efficiencies. Perhaps efficiencies will be noted more with plugins than with VIs, I don't know yet.
(2) SoundToys is not working. The knobs do not respond properly. I haven't checked all my plugins, but this is one that I use quite a lot. Perhaps the problem will suddenly disappear, as some others have reported... but that hasn't happened yet.
(3) I have to agree with others that the whiteness of the design is definitely causes an immediate increase in eye strain. I had to adjust the contrast of my monitor to cut it down a little. I think I like it a bit lighter than it was in DP5, but there should definitely be an option to lighten and darken the GUI without having to adjust your monitor.
(3) To end on a more positive note, there are lots of great improvements, which include the presence of a drop down list that shows up on any of your VIs revealing other VIs that are currently loaded. So in order to bring up a VI window that is hidden behind another you simply select it in the drop down list on the frontmost VI. Very easy and swift.

That's my initial report. Sorry it wasn't more glowing. I think I am going back to DP5 until some of this stuff is sorted out. It seems, so far, that both versions can live harmoniously on my system.

+1. I agree. As I said elsewhere, there's a lot of good. The Leveler and ProVerb alone could probably sell for $200 which I think makes the upgrade a very good value, and probably a no-brainer... but the visual changes constantly draw my attention away from what's important and leave me with a feeling that my Ferrari DAW software is more like a kit car than the real thing. The fit and finish speak of something cobbled together rather than the excellence and precision that is DP.

The tracks selector taking up the whole left side of my screen as opposed to just the left side of the mixer doesn't seem like a very efficient use of space to me. I have also found the track selector to sometimes glitch and not display any tracks (selected or not) until I toggle the track selector icon in the bottom left of the mixer window. Toggling it can sometimes cause an abrupt screen redraw, and I think I experienced an audio glitch at least one time.

I also agree with the track window colours looking "tacky". (Good choice of words) I prefer to have a choice how these colours are displayed. The original "sliver" of colour seemed to be enough to help relate the track to it's chosen colour.

With the new method of "colourizing" the tracks, it would be nice to see what it would look like to be able to adjust how transparent or opaque the colour is in relation to the track. Even being able to choose between glossy and matte would be nice. I believe our old meters had sort of a glossy texture that provided better contrast. That way it wouldn't just be such a huge visual distraction.

Even the lime green progress meter that you see when a project is loading looks cheap. It looks 1D and... tacky.

Further down the list, but also very important is the wasted space (IMHO) around the two

counters counters

In the Control Panel. There was already a HUGE counter available if you needed to see it from across the room. If someone thinks the counters really need to be that isolated how about making the space around them adjustable, like the column width in the Tracks Overview window.

Or make the number in the counter window Hot Pink. J/K.

The


Audio Performance Meter



also


wastes

a

ton

of


Vertical



Space.


I would like to see the option of having it integrate in the Control Panel. It's something I refer to often.

I realize that this may sound like "everyone pile on." That's not my intent at all. I LOVE using DP. I just wish there was some sense that our opinions as users are important and that there was a legitimate way to give our feedback.

Having the UI streamlined is one thing, but have the look, feel and operation of the program change so drastically is something else, and something I didn't bargain for.

I know one thing, this sure seems to have validated a lot of the design choices of DP5's GUI.

Finally, I have to say, a lot of these visual cues seem to remind me of the theme that Ableton LIVE uses.

I think it's fine for LIVE. I remember being really surprised at their simply drawn metering and controls. (The Proverb reminds of LIVE UI done well)

I know LIVE is a powerful program in it's own right, but I never considered it to be in the league of DP and I thought DP UI used to reflect the depth of ability present "under the hood" Precise and Powerful.

[zed]

(3) To end on a more positive note, there are lots of great improvements, which include the presence of a drop down list that shows up on any of your VIs revealing other VIs that are currently loaded. So in order to bring up a VI window that is hidden behind another you simply select it in the drop down list on the frontmost VI. Very easy and swift.

Hate to kill your positive note, but that feature has been in DP as long as I have been using it.

Ha! So it is. That's funny! ... through fooling around with DP6, I noticed a couple of other things which I thought were new features but which I have now found also exist in DP5. If nothing else, this experience with DP6 will allow me to work more efficiently in DP5!!

Other things I thought were new additions, but weren't are:
(1) the drop down markers window in the Tracks window. I can't believe that this has been there the whole time and that I wasn't using it. I was needlessly fiddling around with the Markers window in DP5 while that shortcut was there the whole time.
(2) the ease of popping the mixing console (and other editor windows) in and out of the consolidated window using the simple command: control-1. Holy crap! This is going to change the way I work significantly no matter what version I am using. I remember having troubles with taking things out of (and putting them back into) consolidated windows in DP 4.6 and DP 5.0. It seems MOTU must have fixed things up a bit by the time DP 5.11 came around, and all this time I have not been taking advantage of the improvements.

So, in summary, the release of DP6 is going to help me work better whether I am using it or not. The process of trying to solve problems and learn new ways to work seems to inspire better ways to work.

[chrispick]

I don't know, guys. I prefer the new UI, particularly the Track Overview and the tabbed menus.

The white doesn't bug me at all. Like I wrote in another thread, word processing apps have been predominantly white screen for years.

And, once I pulled the "AU bundle switch" trick, all of my VIs and plugins worked great. Actually, I don't know if they would've work without the switch-out as I did it upon first opening.

[Eleventh Hour Sound]

I don't know, guys. I prefer the new UI, particularly the Track Overview and the tabbed menus.

And, once I pulled the "AU bundle switch" trick, all of my VIs and plugins are working great. Actually, I don't know if they would've work without the switch-out as I did it upon first opening.

If the UI could be selected as a skin or preference I guess we could all be happy and get back to work.

James, can we take a Poll?

[blue]

The white doesn't bug me at all.

Me neither. Whiter whites means better contrast, and the extra space in some of the windows is a welcome thing now that we're not using 13 inch monitors anymore. I like that things feel a bit more open, lighter.

[blue]

Ha! So it is. That's funny! ... through fooling around with DP6, I noticed a couple of other things which I thought were new features but which I have now found also exist in DP5. If nothing else, this experience with DP6 will allow me to work more efficiently in DP5!!

Hehe. You move around the furniture and you're bound to knock your knees against something new.

[zed]

The white doesn't bug me at all.

Me neither. Whiter whites means better contrast, and the extra space in some of the windows is a welcome thing now that we're not using 13 inch monitors anymore. I like that things feel a bit more open, lighter.

I really, really want to agree with you guys... and part of me does... but even just going back and forth between the two images I posted above causes a twang of bright sunlight pain when I look at the DP6 capture after viewing the DP5 capture. In some ways I think DP6 looks slicker, but the white is harder to focus your eyes on.

Further down the list, but also very important is the wasted space (IMHO) around the two

counters counters

The counters don't really bother me. I don't mind the extra space, as long as it is not resulting in seriously wasted space (as in the Track Selector issue above). But some of the extra space is nice, and we have to keep in mind that some of that space will eventually be taken up as new features are added down the road. That control panel will probably end up having more things on it at some point too. The extra space could be good future planning.

[Eleventh Hour Sound]

The white doesn't bug me at all.

Me neither. Whiter whites means better contrast, and the extra space in some of the windows is a welcome thing now that we're not using 13 inch monitors anymore. I like that things feel a bit more open, lighter.

OK it's a conspiracy here... between your screen name and the new level meters... No wonder you like 'em

[Shooshie]

I don't know, guys. I prefer the new UI, particularly the Track Overview and the tabbed menus.

The white doesn't bug me at all. Like I wrote in another thread, word processing apps have been predominantly white screen for years.

And, once I pulled the "AU bundle switch" trick, all of my VIs and plugins worked great. Actually, I don't know if they would've work without the switch-out as I did it upon first opening.

And graphics apps have used grey, checkered, or black backgrounds for years. Word processing apps are about words, not the relationships between their positions. You can almost close your eyes and type a novel. Plus, music apps have a truckload of things going on that your eye has to follow quickly and with immediate accuracy. I think the previous UI had grown too gray, but I'm part of the crowd that finds the white a bit too nervous and contrasty. Don't take me wrong; I can use it, and I will do so without concern. It's just that if they let me design it, I'd soften some of that. I like the white: I just want some softening elements in there. Some lines with shadows, some shapes that lead your eye to pertinent information. But I know where to find everything. The white won't slow me down.

Shooshie

[Eleventh Hour Sound]

The white doesn't bug me at all.

Me neither. Whiter whites means better contrast, and the extra space in some of the windows is a welcome thing now that we're not using 13 inch monitors anymore. I like that things feel a bit more open, lighter.

I really, really want to agree with you guys... and part of me does... but even just going back and forth between the two images I posted above causes a twang of bright sunlight pain when I look at the DP6 capture after viewing the DP5 capture. In some ways I think DP6 looks slicker, but the white is harder to focus your eyes on.

Further down the list, but also very important is the wasted space (IMHO) around the two

counters counters

The counters don't really bother me. I don't mind the extra space, as long as it is not resulting in seriously wasted space (as in the Track Selector issue above). But some of the extra space is nice, and we have to keep in mind that some of that space will eventually be taken up as new features are added down the road. That control panel will probably end up having more things on it at some point too. The extra space could be good future planning.

I think giving us choices with the GUI could make everyone happy, even though I know I'm right

Same thing with regard to the counters; let the width be adjustable like the columns in the TO window. To me it's a huge waste of space. I was perfectly happy with the existing counters, and the audio performance meter that I always use to try to position next to the control panel is now even more clumsy.

While we're talking about all this, what happened to the title bars? The title bar in the TO window works as expected (you can grab it and drag it around) but the same "title bar" in the SE window doesn't let you grab, you have to use the thin strip above it.

[daveyboy]

One correction in regards to the track selection. You can change it's behavior in the prefs/edit windows to behave the dp5 way (to always open in edit window)! I've been playing around with the new way.

The bright gui is, well, bright. I've tried the trick of adjusting the gamma on my monitors. It kind of fixes it but then it's harder to read other text in the plugins.

The VI prerendering definitely isn't "done" yet so I'm using the older audiounit support bundle. the new bundle has made it impossible for me to work at all because of plugins not working so luckily there's a workaround.

All and all I'm moving ahead and going with it on a per song basis. I have no idea if all my current projects will open correctly.

I have thought more about Logic 8 but to be honest I think that when it boiled down to me getting my work done I'd be pretty hampered, even though I think they've nailed the vi prerendering thing. My guess is that 6 months from now we'll be on to the 2nd or 3rd carnation of DP6 and many of these issues will be moot. At least I hope so.

[sonus]

When you click on the Track Selector button at the bottom left of the graphic editor window, the track selector now opens up in a separate consolidated window (that's if your graphic editor is sharing a consolidated window with the tracks window or another main edit window). The result is that track selection is no longer connected with the edit window it is associated with. On this small screen version of the project I have captured, it might not look so disconcerting, but on a big screen, that Track Selector can end up being quite far removed from the edit window it is associated with. The only work-around I can find is to not include the Track Selector in the consolidated window list (in preferences) and then to have the Track Selector exist as a separate window, which is going to take some getting used to, and not very efficient, if you ask me. If, however, you do open graphic editor windows outside of a consolidated window, the track selector remains connected to it as in previous DP versions.

I've found that for me the most convenient way of using the track selector in DP6 is as follows:
1. In the Preferences setup window / Consolidated windows , I deselected the track selector from the list.
2. I assigned the letter "Y" to tracks selector in the commands window.
3. Moved the tracks selector window to the far right hand side of the screen and adjusted its width to the the average track name length so the track names aren't choped .

This way the tracks selector window is always one key stroke away , appears always at the same position when I need it and it is always focused to the edit window I 'm working on.
I.m.o. it is much more convenient and easy now, than it was in the previous version.

[zed]

One correction in regards to the track selection. You can change it's behavior in the prefs/edit windows to behave the dp5 way (to always open in edit window)! I've been playing around with the new way.

Thank you daveyboy! I am so relieved to know that this preference is available. I regret that I made an issue of it... I should have just kept quiet for another day or two. But at the same time I am very glad to know that this was a false alarm. I have edited my original post for the benefit of any new thread readers, and have credited you with the correction.

I've found that for me the most convenient way of using the track selector in DP6 is as follows:
1. In the Preferences setup window / Consolidated windows , I deselected the track selector from the list.
2. I assigned the letter "Y" to tracks selector in the commands window.
3. Moved the tracks selector window to the far right hand side of the screen and adjusted its width to the the average track name length so the track names aren't choped .

This way the tracks selector window is always one key stroke away , appears always at the same position when I need it and it is always focused to the edit window I 'm working on.
I.m.o. it is much more convenient and easy now, than it was in the previous version.

Good thinking sonus. I had figured out that removing the Track Selector from the consolidated window would probably be the best work-around, but I must admit that I am very pleased that it is now possible to go back to the way I am accustomed to working. I may change my methods to something like that, as I start really taking advantage of popping things into and out of the consolidated window using control-1. That is a really great toggle command... easy to perform and something that EVERYONE should be aware of.