Time signature question

[SixStringGeek]

I was listening to Zappa's "Watermelon in Easter Hay" the other day and noticed every other measure had an extra beat. IOW it sounded like 4/4 except every second bar would have one extra quarter note.

So what do you call that time signature? 9/4? I lack a full proper music education. I've got basic harmony theory but not so much on the time signatures.

[bkshepard]

It's fairly common in classical music to see alternating time signatures like 4/4, 5/4. Zappa was certainly influenced by a number of the contemporary classical composers. Some composers indicate the alternating time signature by putting a 4/4 followed by a 5/4 at the beginning of the piece and then the performers keep track of which measure is which. Other composers put a time signature at the beginning of every measure. Either way works.

[mhschmieder]

There's no right or wrong with time signatures -- it tends to be a balancing act between Music Theory and what is convenient for the players (and this is contextual, as different instruments might conceptualise how a "long time signature" breaks down differently).

It is true that conservatory-trained musicians are more inclined in general to rotate time signatures than present long time signatures. Partly to disambiguate where the accents should go, but also because in a larger score, this might work out better for showing the interaction of rhythmic elements between different instruments (or make it easier for the players).

I was in a Chicago cover band with another forum member back in the mid-to-late 1980's (focusing on their early material), and was surprised at how many time signature changes there were in the scores we were using. They were mostly conservatory trained (I think Peter Cetera was the exception?), and that's probably how they were taught.

Jazz, Latin, World/Ethnic traditions, etc., tend more towards encapsulating more complex time patterns into single, inclusive, time signatures. As such music is generally played without scores or at least detailed charts, the traditions and the communication between the players establishes the breakdown of minor accents within the larger pattern.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Another method is to create a time sig with the composite displayed as "4 + 5" over the beat "4" with dotted lines at the division. If the division were consistent I think I'd probably opt for that method as the clearest and easiest on the eye.

[philbrown]

I was listening to Zappa's "Watermelon in Easter Hay" the other day and noticed every other measure had an extra beat. IOW it sounded like 4/4 except every second bar would have one extra quarter note.

So what do you call that time signature? 9/4? I lack a full proper music education. I've got basic harmony theory but not so much on the time signatures.

Thanks for posting this 6String - I have had this same question for years.
Good answers.

[bkshepard]

MLC is correct, the 4+5 over 4 has become a common way of writing 4/4 + 5/4 when it actually happens within one bar (9/4 with 4 beats followed by 5 beats). If it is actually 2 distinct measures (a 4/4 followed by a 5/4 and alternating) you usually see 4/4 followed by 5/4 in the time signature position, or you actually see a time signature on every measure.

[leigh]

MLC is correct, the 4+5 over 4 has become a common way of writing 4/4 + 5/4 when it actually happens within one bar (9/4 with 4 beats followed by 5 beats). If it is actually 2 distinct measures (a 4/4 followed by a 5/4 and alternating) you usually see 4/4 followed by 5/4 in the time signature position, or you actually see a time signature on every measure.

I recently wrote a piece with the first section in 3/4, the second section in 4/4 and the final section in 5/4. The 5/4 feel I wanted was 1-2, 1-2-3 so I wrote the time signature as 5/4 and put in a performance note of "2 + 3" over it in the parts. The players (all conservatory-trained) had no trouble getting the feel on the first read-through.

I try to make it impossible for players to misunderstand what I want. I'm not always successful, but I keep trying.

**Leigh

[Robbie_2327]

I always felt that a great composer can write in odd time signatures without hitting the listener over the head with "hey, I'm writting in an odd time signature".

Now I would really consider him a composer but I always thought that Sting was great at this. So many of his songs have odd time signatures in them and they flow so naturally

[MIDI Life Crisis]

I always felt that a great composer can write in odd time signatures without hitting the listener over the head with "hey, I'm writting in an odd time signature".

Now I would really consider him a composer but I always thought that Sting was great at this. So many of his songs have odd time signatures in them and they flow so naturally

Same for Ian Anderson (Jethro Tull).

[mhschmieder]

Of course, Anderson was borrowing from celtic traditions (and in the 90's from Turkish and Middle Eastern and Central Asian traditions), so there was nothing remotely pretentious or unnatural or forced about what he was up to with "odd" time signatures.

[Jim]

Dave Brubeck wrote a story about performing Unsquare Dance (7/4) in (I think it was) Germany. He was surprised to hear the audience clapping along, in perfect time. Turns out, it was used on TV for a game show theme. Odd meters don't have to be challenging. Most Americans are familiar with the Mission Impossible theme (5/4). NPR's Marketplace theme is 7/4. All the cougars love Yanni. Just about everything I've heard of his is 7/4.

I love to play in odd meters, and add swing and syncopation. I still enjoy listening to Brubeck's Time Out album. I believe it was the first Jazz album to make the "Hit Parade," (due in large part to Take 5); the album concept was experimentation in meter. Other than Yanni, I don't hear a lot of odd time in modern pop.

[cuttime]

Other than Yanni, I don't hear a lot of odd time in modern pop.

"i make this sound" is a welcome addition. Check out "One, Two, Three":

http://www.myspace.com/imakethissound

[jliechty]

The intro to Pink Floyd's Money is in 7/4...

[bkshepard]

A lot of the 70s rock bands used to use 5/4 and 7/4 a lot.

[1nput0utput]

... Other than Yanni, I don't hear a lot of odd time in modern pop.

The bands Tool and A Perfect Circle tend to use odd meters quite a bit. As was mentioned before, Sting used odd meters a lot on his mid-nineties albums.