The Guessing Game

[Tom Brighton]

Hello all , I'm not sure if this topic is the right one to post here ,but here goes
The guessing game is from project to master . when I use to record with analog gear the thing was to record hot to keep good signal to noise levels then it was +6 to the 2 track . everything sounded relatively the same . Now with DAW recording I track with peaks at -10 to -6 , then keep 2 track mixes the same . When it comes time to boost the levels 6 to 10 DB to make the CD , the whole mix changes . I wish the DAW process was more linear.
seems like I am guessing the whole process hoping that when it all gets to my boom box it will sound familiar . Any Ideas on this syndrome or is it just inherent . Thanks , Tom

G5 2.7 dual , DP 5.12
2408 mk 3 , UDA-1 , Digital 328
HR 824's , ADAM A7's
neve 1272 ,

[kassonica]

Hi Tom

How are you boosting your mixes at the mastering stage.

If you are using limiters and/or Brickwall limiters these will change the mix as they are bring up the softest parts of the mix UP in volume and limiting the peaks.

Try using them on the mix buss when you are doing the mix or try using gentle compression and EQ and automation instead.

[davedempsey]

Hi Tom......
Try using them on the mix buss when you are doing the mix or try using gentle compression and EQ and automation instead.

I'm a second on this suggestion. Lately I've been inserting mastering plugs on the mix in DP but not until the mix is pretty well in shape. I then get a chance to change a few things here and there as required on individual tracks and I still do a little more work in Peak, but I'm very interested in getting it as finished as possible in DP. The reason for this is pretty much what Tom has indicated - I got sick and tired of trying to guess what might change in the mastering stage and, having been around the loop so many times in my 30 plus years in the biz, I'm not so much losing respect for what a good mastering engineer does but rather am more interested in getting there on my own. It takes a bit more time but clients really like it if they don't have to take a mix elsewhere before going to the duplication house.

[monkey man]

A VU Meter could help, IMHO; you'll theoretically get a better sense of the true energy of a mix.
This should help you discern between two mixes that, although they both peak similarly, give very different results once squashed - I'm hoping you'd better be able to predict where they'd go.

Running mastering-style plugs permanently on the 2-bus is what I do too.
I bypass 'em for mixing and tracking, but a simple toggle once in a while at least provides some perspective on how things might end up.

[Phil O]

Lately I've been inserting mastering plugs on the mix in DP but not until the mix is pretty well in shape.

This is a controversial practice. Some will argue that you should NEVER do this. I don't know. I always suggest that my clients take their CD to a good mastering facility, but many inform me that that's just not going to happen, so I end up doing the mastering in-house. When I'm sure that I will be mixing and mastering the project myself, I've often wondered if my workflow should change and reflect what you are suggesting. I tried it on one job, and I really don't think the project suffered in any way. In fact it probably saved me a few hours. I think the key is what you said, i.e., get the mix in shape first.

Perhaps in the new digital age of mixing, we should never say NEVER.

Phil

[Tom Brighton]

Thanks for your replies , How I boost levels . I first mix from a soundcraft digital 328 mixer to a stand alone CD burner at 16/44.1 peaking at -10 to -6 , then I import the file into DP's mastering templet and boost the levels to 0 db with UAD-1's precision limiter then try to fix it with precision EQ after it all changes . What I have had most luck with is first raising the 2 track file with bite gain volume to -2 then using the plugs .

[kassonica]

Thanks for your replies , How I boost levels . I first mix from a soundcraft digital 328 mixer to a stand alone CD burner at 16/44.1 peaking at -10 to -6 , then I import the file into DP's mastering templet and boost the levels to 0 db with UAD-1's precision limiter then try to fix it with precision EQ after it all changes . What I have had most luck with is first raising the 2 track file with bite gain volume to -2 then using the plugs .

Ok there are a few problems here,

1 Don't boost the level to 0 DB for there will be overs that won't be picked up . Try boosting it to say -03 0f 0 DB or less.

2 put the Limiter on the mix Before you bounce with the setting that you'll use for mastering and see how it changes to the mix and change the relative levels there before you bounce. You don't need to leave it on if you don't want to.

3 And this is MOST important, You should NEVER master at 16bit and this is what you are doing wrong. Always leave the file 24bit for mastering as the dynamic range is a theoretical 144 Db whereas 16bit is around 96.
24 gives you much more dynamic range to play with and many other considerations. All mastering houses request 24 bit files.
Without going into too much theoretical detail the limiters will work better with the extra headroom of 24bit files.

If you try mastering at 24 resolution you find you have an easier time of it.

Converting or dithering to 16 bit SHOULD be the last thing one does before burning a CD.

Hope this helps.

[nick danger]

I've got a lot of projects that were recorded at 16 bit-- mostly due to limited HD space at the time they were recorded.

Should these projects be converted to 24 bit for mixing, and eventually mastering?

[monkey man]

I'd do that, Nick.

Combining those 16bit tracks at a higher dynamic resolution would be the way to go, you'd think.
As you seem to have guessed, continuing the 24bit path through to mastering will retain the subtleties you captured mixing.

[Tom Brighton]

Thanks for replying kassonica and you advise .I should have said when I boost levels they Peak at 0 with no overs . I can't put the plugin limiter on the mix because I use the digital mixer and I wish I could mix 24/44.1 but my CD recorder does not do 24 bit . I would mix to DP if I could figure how to route a digital mix bus from the mixer (soundcraft digital 328 ) without losing two channels of adat lightpipe which will lieve me with 14 channels . Then , why do I use the digital mixer ? Because the DAC's sounds better , and the 2408 mk 3 sounds better clocked to the mixer .

[kassonica]

Umm

Thats rather a hard problem.

One way would be if you had another computer and convertors you could record the mix into DP that way at 44/24.

Let me think about this some more.

[monkey man]

Tom, perhaps a cheap USB S/PDIF input will suffice?
If you were so willing, you could crossgrade to a MOTU interface that has 'em (most do).
That is, if you don't already have an S/PDIF input, and provided your desk has the output.

FWIW, I used to use ADAT for stems and S/PDIF for the main mix with my O2R back in the day, and this is partly why I assumed you'd have an S/PDIF out on the mixer.

[OldTimey]

the only argument i can think of as to why not to master in the mix stage (if you are mastering the material yourself of course!) is that on a full length album you still need to match levels between songs, which i think is easier to do when working with mixes with plenty of headroom.

[Tom Brighton]

Thanks MM , the ditgital 328 has s/pdif as well as toslink and aes 2 track digital outputs . 16 adat toslink are inputed to the 328 taking up bank A and B of the 2408 mk3 which leaves bank C for s/pdif input to DP . every time I have tried to make this work . I have had terrible feed back loops and then crashes , but if I could make this work that would be half the battle won ...........

[Tom Brighton]

Thankyou OldTimey , I was thinking the same thing . maybe going back to old school thinking . track fairly hot , switch mic's before EQing keep processing to minimal . .........TB