Instrument Vol pushed to max on playback - why? - is it DP?

Spikey Horse · Post by **Spikey Horse** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 7:31 pm

Can someone help me with a problem please. I'm finding some Kontakt 2 instruments and some other VI's are having their volume pushed up to maximum when I hit playback even though there is no volume automation in the MIDI track being sent to it.

In K2 the only workaround I've found is to reset the 'instrument option' everytime I load a new instrument (either uncheck 'accept vol/pan cont data' or just reduce the vol upper range down to -6dB) ... in other VI's I've had to engage automation in the MIDI track and have the fader set to 64 just to get a VI to maintain its default of 0dB output.

Again, there is no vol 7 data in these MIDI tracks (it's not a view filter thing) so why is DP affecting the vol settings at all ?!!! I bring it down in the instrument, hit playback and it just shoots right back up again LOL!

It's something simple / obvious I'm sure but it got me stumped- Help!

Shooshie · Post by **Shooshie** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 7:36 pm

It does that, I think, as a default. It follows the track faders in the Mixing Board window. I think you can turn it off with the option to accept CC#7 and #10 data in the options panel. I forget now whether that's how you do it or not. But I've managed to turn that off from time to time. I've also come to accept it and actually use it that way. Doesn't bother me now as it did at first.

Shooshie

Shooshie · Post by **Shooshie** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 7:49 pm

I just booted up DP, and indeed, that's how it works. Click the little "gears" over to the left of the instrument names, and their options panel will open. It's the third option, I think -- the Controllers tab. De-Select "accept standard controllers for volume and pan." At least, I think that's the way it goes.

You have to do it for each instrument, unless there's a preferences panel for it somewhere that I'm forgetting about.

Shooshie

Spikey Horse · Post by **Spikey Horse** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 8:01 pm

Thanks Shooshie - first on the pitch with the first aid box as usual! - Yep, you're absolutely right, but the thing is I know it didn't always used to be like this .... was it an update when it changed, maybe? ..... this has been bothering me for months now and I have been diligently re-saving teh offending instruments with the new settings (when I remember to save them) but I know I have instruments that used to be completely fine and would stick at -6dB and now they shoot up to 12 dB

I wish there was a global version of 'instrument options' in K2 but there isn't .. I can only find a -6dB / 0dB switch for resetting the default vol.

And I've just noticed Real Guitar 2L which I got yesterday now has its volume shooting up to max (10dB) on playback (causing the signal to totally clip) instead of 0dB which is the default when you load it up. Grrrrrrrrrrrr. I can't find any setting in RG to help this and all I can do is set the MIDI track to 64.

This can't be the right... something has gone dreadfully wrong here.

tim57var · Post by **tim57var** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 8:59 pm

I get around this by just sending a little CC#7 info before I record the track. It sets the fader to your controller value, and keeps it, unless you send it other info or turn on automation. At first it was a pain, but it has become habit. Always something, isn't it???

Shooshie · Post by **Shooshie** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 9:13 pm

Spikey Horse wrote: This can't be the right... something has gone dreadfully wrong here.

Seems like every VI has some tragic flaw to it. I wish this technology was more mature.

Shoosh

Dave Connor · Post by **Dave Connor** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 10:43 pm

Shoosh, you have no idea. I just asked a heavy K2 user about that issue (his K2 templates don't budge volume-wise.) Anyway, maybe he just didn't remember but couldn't tell me how to set things up. So thanks for sparing me from (literaly) a few dozen more headaches.

Shooshie · Post by **Shooshie** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 11:13 pm

I just picked up 4 Garritan VI's (Kontakt2 Interface) back during his pre-Christmas sale. They came in early January. I'm no expert at them yet, but the first thing I do with all VI's is to push all the buttons and find out what happens. Took me a few times to figure that one out, because the label kind of made me think it did the opposite of what it does, but I got it finally. I need to write down stuff like that. In Mach5.2 I discovered the key to the whole shebang on the first day, then forgot it. "Control-Click" was that key. Click any button or item on the whole dang interface, and you get the automation/modulation interface to that button. If you don't Control-Click, you don't get no interface. Ever. You can hunt in the manual or search through every button and every pop-up, but you'll never find what you're looking for until you Control-Click. I'd found it and forgotten it, and I suffered for months trying to figure it out again. One day I accidentally had my finger on the Control button when I clicked. [insert the sound that Moses heard when the stone tablets appeared on the mountain, with a burning bush and the whole works] WOW! You coulda knocked me over with a feather. My answer was under that Control Key the whole time.

I don't know what it takes to get all this stuff figured out. I don't know if it could ever be standardized. I sure like that Kontakt seems to recognize Breath Control without any trickery involved. Why can't MOTU Symphonic Instrument and Mach5.2? Why is Volume Control #7 handled a little differently on each VI? Why are some so easy to balance, and others just seem to be all over the place, dynamically? Why do some have effective dynamic layers, and others are practically unusable unless you pin the velocities to 64 or 96 or 127? Why do some max out at such a low volume that they require nothing short of a powerful boost from a brickwall limiter like Waves L2 just to be usable in a mix?

That list could go on and on and on, and I'm even a relative newcomer to VI's. I've only been using them for about 3 years. I think my first one was in mid-2005.

So, I just take things as they come. Try to learn them the best I can. I always try to push the envelope a little and see how much I can squeeze out of these things. I'm currently recording a very important saxophone quartet, but the best saxes I have are Garritan's Jazz saxes. Sheesh... sounds like a choir of cicadas tied to strings. Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz... and there's just not much I can do about it. Maybe Wallander will come out with some good saxes that don't cost an arm and a leg. I can only hope.

Well, sorry for all the tangents. It's just on my mind.

Shooshie

Dave Connor · Post by **Dave Connor** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 11:29 pm

What about Chris Hein Horns? I just heard them the other day (cause I need saxes too) and they sounded pretty darn good with lots of cool articulations, scoops, falls etc.

Shooshie · Post by **Shooshie** » Wed Mar 05, 2008 12:05 am

Dave Connor wrote:What about Chris Hein Horns? I just heard them the other day (cause I need saxes too) and they sounded pretty darn good with lots of cool articulations, scoops, falls etc.

Not sure I want any articulations. Like vibrato, I like doing the articulations myself. (WX-5) I'm not familiar with them. I've seen them mentioned before, but I'm not sure I've heard them. I think I'll wait for Wallander's first. If they don't sound hopeful, I'll check out Hein's.

Shooshie

1nput0utput · Post by **1nput0utput** » Wed Mar 05, 2008 4:18 am

The DP mixing board is transmitting the current CC #7 and CC #10 values whenever you play the sequence because event chasing is enabled. CC #7 value 127 equals maximum volume; that is why the volume control for Kontakt parts changes when you play the sequence. Just disable event chasing.

Shooshie · Post by **Shooshie** » Wed Mar 05, 2008 4:56 am

I think I'd go crazy if I disabled event chasing. Fortunately, I've come to appreciate the mixing board as my control for Kontakt2 instrument volumes and pans. Beats going to the interface to change things. But if that's just not a good fit for you, the options method does work; you just have to set it for each instrument.

Shooshie

npatton · Post by **npatton** » Wed Mar 05, 2008 6:21 am

I've found DP does this with my S90ES. When I record a part, I have to reach over and reset the patch # before recording. Some patches on the S90ES actually distort before leaving the synth when they're maxed out. Took me weeks of bald patches on my head to figure this out. (Why am I distorting when my waveforms look fine and my levels are all really low?!!!)

I'll try some of these other ideas, too!
Thanks,
n

Spikey Horse · Post by **Spikey Horse** » Wed Mar 05, 2008 12:01 pm

hmmmm .. I'd rather DP did not send c7 unless I had enabled automation in that MIDI track. That would make much more sense to me.

I'm still sure this behavior has changed at some point down the line, as I remember this NOT happening in the past - and I've always used event chasing ... I was kind of hoping there might have been another pref in DP I had missed (although I can't find one anywhere) - you know:

'annoyingly max out the vol on all VI's with c7 data at 127 value on playback' - check/uncheck

.... I guess I'll just have to work around it as best as i can and try to move on with my life...

Maybe DP6 will have the answer!

Shooshie · Post by **Shooshie** » Wed Mar 05, 2008 1:17 pm

It's MIDI Volume control. Controller #7 has ALWAYS run the fader in Performer and DP. If someone wants to make their VI utilize CC#7, that's fine. But that's one of the reasons CC#11 was created (Expression control), to relieve #7 from its double-duty of running MIDI faders (i.e., doing "volume" from within a DAW) to controlling volume in individual instruments in Multi-Timbral setups.

I don't know the answers. IF you look at it logically, there are several different volume controls necessary for MIDI:

1) For global volumes on a MIDI channel -- that is, overall output volume of any rack unit
2) For volumes for individual tracks in rack units (independent multi-timbral tracks in each rack unit)
3) MIDI Fader control in DP (MIDI Fader Automation)
4) master volume for independent tracks (set the maximum range at any given moment, within which other controls like CC#11 must operate)

And there may be more. I'm tired, so I'm not going to try to think of any more than that. That's enough. That's stretching it thin for one controller. So, naturally there are going to be many solutions for how to use that. What we have here is Native Instruments' solution. May not be to everyone's liking, but it works, and they do give you the option to change it.

Shooshie