I've seen the light, leaving Logic for good...

ewtwolf · Post by **ewtwolf** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 8:38 am

I just want to chime in and say I finally had my "AH HA" moment with DP. I was struggling with learning it because of some of the different ways it handles user navigation, (no MIDI regions, no right mouse click support, etc...) I gave up and purchased Logic Studio - yes I was pulled in by all the hype...I just have to say, that program is so sloppy in its design. Apple puts their usual sexy coating on top, like the new GUI, fancy marketing, but then falls way short of fixing critical workflow issues...seriously, has anyone tried working with multi-timbral VI's in Logic...it completely sucks. It feels like an after thought. There are so many frustrating things with that program. Why does it force me to create a track when starting a new project? Then, there are the performance issues -- Don't get me started...

In the end, Logic just doesn't feel like a mature Pro audio app to me. I know there are many who swear by it and use it every day, but once I 'got' DP, I truly understand why so many people LOVE this program. And it is rock solid stable on my setup with version 5.13. Things are incredibly intuitive once you grasp the subtle differences between DP and the other sequencers. For me the big understanding was figuring out the tools and how to select objects correctly. I really don't miss MIDI regions anymore. I actually think not having them forces me to put a little more finess in my editing since I'm not treating everything as phrases. I know I'm only scratching the surface in terms of the capabilities, so I'm eager to keep learning and build a more powerful workflow.

So, I just wanted to announce to world that DP rules, Logic Sucks, and I'm really excited about version 6. To me Apple is trying to wedge itself into the market by over offering a bunch of bloatware. Sure, for someone new, having all those old instruments and effects might be nice, but I'd rather spend my money on a top effects suite and new fresh sounding VI's to run in DP. I hope MOTU really tries to extend its user base with version 6. I'm sure I am not the only person frustrated by Logic.

Anyone know when MOTU is planning on releasing version 6? They always puzzle me becuase they announce products but then don't update their website.

Cheers!

-e

biujee · Post by **biujee** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 9:39 am

Not sure that Logic Sucks....

The one thing that Logic does have over DP at the moment is that Logic handles CPU performance way better.

DP is really not cool for how much it zaps performance when doing big sessions with lots of VI's etc...
Running the same amount of Plugs etc on both platforms nearly brings Macbook Pro to a hault with DP..not so uch with Logic 8.

Although I do love DP, I am glad to be seeing 6 soon!!

bOing · Post by **bOing** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 10:07 am

I think Radiohead should buy up all the DAW companies, have them develop the perfect one through cross pollination, and then put it on the internet as "pay what you think it's worth."

Sure, it's crazy, but wouldn't that be fun? You'd have far more people paying less rather than far less people paying more.

Evens out in the end I think, and you'd have the best of everything.

[hmmm. I started this as a joke, but it's actually looking almost logical.]

AlMacMeister · Post by **AlMacMeister** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 11:15 am

So, I just wanted to announce to world that DP rules, Logic Sucks...

Glad you find DP to be a great solution for your needs! It really is very powerful software. But that's quite a blanket statement (I don't think it's true either btw). DP/PT/Logic/Cubase etc. are just tools to get the job done. Saying Logic sucks and DP rules is the equivalent of saying "that guy's music sucks"; it's totally subjective and depends on your experience. Any DAW is good in the right hands or situation. I don't think we need a DAW war...

bOing wrote:buy up all the DAW companies, have them develop the perfect one through cross pollination

I think murphy's law says that the minute the perfect DAW is developed, the universe will implode. Or something like that.

grimepoch · Post by **grimepoch** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 11:51 am

Not to be rude, but I absolutely disagree with your opinions. I use both Logic and DP and love them both. When I thought something was implemented backwards in each program, I discovered it was only that two different ways of solving the same problem and both have their strengths AND weaknesses. After learning how to perform the same actions in both, I was absolutely amazed at having the power of both ways.

Like, I for one have felt that VI implementation in DP has always been a big pain in the neck, having to freeze the track. The fact that audio 'objects' and 'tracks' in Logic are not the same, you realize that the multi-timbral capabilities in Logic are actually extremely powerful AND easy to use. I prefer VIs in Logic over DP any day.

As for performance, you must have something set wrong. I have a track I am working now in Logic with over 64 plugins running at 128 buffer setting and it works great. This song has 34 tracks. There is NO WAY I can do that in DP. Not even REMOTELY close. You are the first person I have heard that found Logic to be slower than DP.

That said, editing audio in DP is an absolute dream. I hate manipulating audio files in Logic. It's cludgy and non-intuitive. Also, I like the mixing board interface much better and the meters are all done much nicer. Not to mention the audio monitor, the MIDI monitor, and my favorite plugin in DP which is the Pattern Gate.

What I am saying is that both programs are both Pro and offer amazing ability. If you think Logic is not a pro program, or that it doesn't work well, I contend you just don't know how to use it. I say the same thing to people who like to complain about DP or ProTools (which I don't like, but respect).

rikp · Post by **rikp** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:17 pm

Do yourself a big favor.

Use both!!!!!!

I have been using both programs for quite a while now and I must say that I can't live without either.

I love to do film and composing in DP, but really love Logic for recording and editing audio. I also do my final mixes in Logic. I love the plugs and presets.

Just my 2 cents!

Peace

rikp

grimepoch · Post by **grimepoch** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:20 pm

Good point.

I too do all my video scoring work in DP because it absolutely blows Logic away for that sort of thing.

That said, the VIs in logic for the most part destroy the plugins in DP.

Amp Simulator
Sculpture
ES2
Ultrabeat
Delay Designer

They are GREAT.

I still think the masterworks EQ though beats the PANTS off of the Logic EQ. If DP sold it separate as an AU I would buy it in a heartbeat. That and the pattern gate!

(Writing my own pattern gate at the moment though, tired of there not being any real good ones on the market).

Shooshie · Post by **Shooshie** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:35 pm

grimepoch wrote:Not to be rude, but I absolutely disagree with your opinions. I use both Logic and DP and love them both. When I thought something was implemented backwards in each program, I discovered it was only that two different ways of solving the same problem and both have their strengths AND weaknesses. After learning how to perform the same actions in both, I was absolutely amazed at having the power of both ways.

Like, I for one have felt that VI implementation in DP has always been a big pain in the neck, having to freeze the track. The fact that audio 'objects' and 'tracks' in Logic are not the same, you realize that the multi-timbral capabilities in Logic are actually extremely powerful AND easy to use. I prefer VIs in Logic over DP any day.

As for performance, you must have something set wrong. I have a track I am working now in Logic with over 64 plugins running at 128 buffer setting and it works great. This song has 34 tracks. There is NO WAY I can do that in DP. Not even REMOTELY close. You are the first person I have heard that found Logic to be slower than DP.

That said, editing audio in DP is an absolute dream. I hate manipulating audio files in Logic. It's cludgy and non-intuitive. Also, I like the mixing board interface much better and the meters are all done much nicer. Not to mention the audio monitor, the MIDI monitor, and my favorite plugin in DP which is the Pattern Gate.

What I am saying is that both programs are both Pro and offer amazing ability. If you think Logic is not a pro program, or that it doesn't work well, I contend you just don't know how to use it. I say the same thing to people who like to complain about DP or ProTools (which I don't like, but respect).

I don't thiink he said that Logic is slower than DP, unless you're interpreting his line "and then there are the performance issues..." To me, that did not come across as "Logic is slower." More likely he was referring to the instability of some versions of Logic. I had trouble with it, too, for a while. It just would not keep running. Actually, I don't know whether or not that has been fixed, as I stopped using Logic then, but it did not happen until I started using Leopard, so chances are it was just a temporary bug.

I have to agree with the original poster up to a point. For my way of working, Logic really is not good. It just doesn't offer the fluency and ease of editing CC data that DP offers, and don't even get me started on drawing velocity phrases. But I've always assumed there were some tricks to that in Logic, and that I just wasn't finding them.

So, while I agree with some of you that he may have been exaggerating a little to say that Logic sucks, I also agree with the original post that DP is so much better that it tempts one to say that. But we've all been through this before. We all know that Logic offers certain styles of working that are great for certain kinds of users. Pattern-based or loop-based composing and arranging are a snap in Logic, because it really seems to be built around that. But for composers/arrangers who do things more linearly, and for whom no two phrases are alike, DP clearly is king.

Different strokes, different folks.

Shooshie

blue · Post by **blue** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:38 pm

grimepoch wrote:(Writing my own pattern gate at the moment though, tired of there not being any real good ones on the market).

VERY interested in that. I agree, the current options are lacking. MOTU's pattern gate is useful, but it needs to do more. What I would love to see is cell separation, so you could send each cell ••“or part of each cell••“ to a filter/delay section. Even better, I would love to have multi-out capability, so you could send cells to aux tracks and subsequently any plugin you like. Side-chaining would be nice too.

IAMLFO · Post by **IAMLFO** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:36 pm

The way I see it is that DP has everything I need for MIDI plus a bunch of good audio features. Logic is great for audio work but not so much for MIDI.

At this point the combination of DP and Logic gives me the closest thing to a killer DAW that I can imagine.

Regarding stability, I only used Logic 7 for about a month and had some stability issues. With version 8 they all disappeared. I've never had a crash or lock-up in Logic 8.

Sooshie is right about performance. I don't think I could point to one or the other being faster but I can easily say that Logic is more efficient with resources at this point and by a long shot. I expect DP 6 is going to address this.

This is an interesting thread with some interesting responses. Thanks for posting ewtwolf!

-Kevin

IAMLFO · Post by **IAMLFO** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:37 pm

blue wrote:
grimepoch wrote:(Writing my own pattern gate at the moment though, tired of there not being any real good ones on the market).
VERY interested in that. I agree, the current options are lacking. MOTU's pattern gate is useful, but it needs to do more. What I would love to see is cell separation, so you could send each cell ••“or part of each cell••“ to a filter/delay section. Even better, I would love to have multi-out capability, so you could send cells to aux tracks and subsequently any plugin you like. Side-chaining would be nice too.

Ok, can you two please tell me what the heck you are talking about? I don't understand it fully but it sure sounds like something that would be very useful.

-Kevin

grimepoch · Post by **grimepoch** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:40 pm

When someone uses the word 'performance' with regard to computer software to me it has always had the connotation of speed. Same thing with hardware for that matter. People tend to the the word 'stability' for 'stability' issues. Maybe my experience is different, but that is how that statement came across to me.

I agree, different style, usages, practices, needs, desires all translate into one simple statement 'Use what works for you!'

I just get tired of the continuous "Logic is not Pro, DP is not Pro, If it's not Analog Tape, it's crap" type arguments. They end up doing nothing but incite DAW wars like this post...again and again and again. I respond only so that the new or curious reader isn't blinded by a single viewpoint of opinion, but at least sees some counter arguments to it. Too many people believe what they read at first glance.

And I am not saying that my views or opinions are right, definitely not, I believe mine come with the same level of self bias as everyone else's.

Of course, all my opinions on DP are going to have to wait for a bit as I eagerly await DP6 and some MUCH sought after features. That said, I still contend that MOTU NEEDS TO IMPROVE the performance of DP. I love it, I really do, but the sheer amount of extra processing power I can get in Logic has caused me to do all my tracking there since I run with LOTS of synths and DP is just unusable for recording synth music when you have to crank the buffer way up to keep it running smooth.

Kubi · Post by **Kubi** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:53 pm

Need to freeze VI will go away in DP6...

dealbreaker for me in Logic would be:

- no multiple sequences per project
- no multiple mixes per project
- no POLAR
- until very recently, no ADC on Auxes, I think that's been fixed in L8; not sure though
- the way I remember, DPs audio bussing and routing scheme was way more flexible, but that may have been fixed in L8; I absolutely depend on being able to send anything anywhere at any time, all ADC'd, period.
- no V-Rack, which of course in Logic doesn't matter since you can't have multiple sequences, but since that blows, the lack of V-Racks counts...
- obviously all the film stuff
- and finally the conductor track, and all the other extremely advanced time-related features (i.e. calculating tempo changes related to hit points, etc. etc.)

I used to use consoles a lot (even wrote my own mixing boards to control my Roland VS recorders back in the day), but since I don't really use any MIDI hardware anymore, I haven't used those in ages. But boy was that a powerful feature...

The fact that folks prefer audio editing in Logic is new to me; maybe that has to do with the fact that in L8 you can finally actually edit in the arrange window? But does it have all the slip/roll/trim etc tools, and do they get invoked with a single keystroke in any window, as they do in DP? I think DP's audio editing is equal to PT and second to none... but maybe Logic has caught up in L8.

The only thing I'd like in DP from Logic is a more intelligent MIDI object behavior (aside from performance, but I somehow never run into a wall - maybe years of DP use have simply adjusted my workflow...)

Anyway, to each his own, but I couldn't make do without all of the above. and personally I hate switching back and forth...

grimepoch · Post by **grimepoch** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:56 pm

I guess 'faster' requires context. In my terms of 'faster' or 'performance' I mean with regards to CPU ability and plugin count. Logic can handle A LOT more plugins before red-lining.

As for 'doing things', it depends on the operation. I think creating cross-fades for instance in Logic is NO WHERE as nice as DP. Also, there is no ability to create waveforms in automation, which I love in DP. So this is something that would be VERY slow in Logic to do.

As for Audio Editing, I cannot stand doing this in Logic. As for MIDI, I find Logic to be WAY better. Interesting you feel the opposite. We must do things differently

And of course there is nothing wrong with that

A pattern gate or trance gate is just basically a plugin or feature that allows you to cut on and off the audio signal of something to a pattern. For instance, if you had a pad sound and you wanted to chop it up a bit rhythmically. A pattern/trance gate allows you to do this very easily. Most of them have and ADSR curve and modulation parameters to really enhance the sound you are getting. I believe these techniques are mostly used in electronic music. Although you could use a pattern gate to generate a tremelo sound.

grimepoch · Post by **grimepoch** » Wed Feb 20, 2008 2:07 pm

For video stuff...I am still on DP for sure, for all the reasons you mention.

- Polar, I find it much easier in Logic to record loop on a track and then I can comp together what I want. To me it works way better than Polar ever did for me. DP6 will have comping so those features should be the same for both, and that is a good thing!

- The ADCs on busses in DP does not work for all plugins. MOTU is aware of this but I have not heard anything back from them about it. It has been well discussed and verified by MOTU. I have not seen any ADC problems in Logic yet.

- I am not sure what problems you have with routing, but I have had NO trouble in Logic routing signals where-ever I want. That said, I have had no trouble routing in DP either other than the ADC issue. Also, in DP5 I cannot feed side chains whereas I can in L8 for things that are not MOTU plugs.

- All the tempo related stuff I use in DP is in Logic, but, I might not be exercising that same stuff.

NOW

What drives me CRAZY in Logic is the MIDI routing, it SUCKS. If you want to record say 2 keyboards at the same time, into two different soft synths, in DP that is easy, you can route ANY MIDI in to ANY MIDI destination.

In logic, without going into the environment and doing all kinds of crazy stuff, the sequencer only handles different MIDI channels AND you cannot map from one channel to another. So, you have to set both keyboards to send on different MIDI channels AND you have to set both destinations to use data on two different channels.

Easy enough to set up, pain in the NECK if you do a lot of multiple people playing at the same time. Hate hate hate it. (And Yes, I've sent a suggestion to apple to get with the program). MIDI routing in DP works WAY better. While the enviroment is cool in Logic, I'd take DPs routing ANYDAY.