Automation with Mackie Control - seems broken in 4.52

[paulhurt]

Hi folks

I'm getting some weird behaviour with 4.52 using Mackie Control to write volume automation moves. Becoming very frustrating and time-consuming to fix (and makes me look bad... you know, you champion DP over ProTools, then the basics suddenly stop working).

Imagine you have an entire track where the fader position is constant. You're happy with the level of that track... except in one section where you want a lift for a while.

The automation appears in the graphic editor as a flat horizontal line.

You put the mixer channel into "Touch" automation mode and hit play.

When the section you want to lift comes along, you grab the fader on the MC, slowly raise it to the new level, keep it there, then fade it back down to the original level (or thereabouts). Release the fader. Press stop.

If you watch the graphic editor as you do this, you see the new automation points being written in as you move the fader. Because we're in "touch" you know that when you release the fader it should drop to the previously written level. So as you move the fader, you are "chasing" an automation point, sitting at the original volume level, along the automation line to the right.

However, at some random moment (usually when you're fading back down) DP writes a spurious automation point just AHEAD of the playback wiper, at a possibly random level. You're now chasing this new automation point along to the right. You're still writing data, but now when you release the fader the level will jump to this new level instead of the level that was there before.

I hope that makes sense. I can post screenshots of what happens if it helps.

Basically, every time I write any automation with the Mackie, I have to get in there and tidy up all the "out points" on-screen, because I can never be sure where my levels will have been left. (sings circus clown theme tune).

This kind of stuff also happens in Trim modes, with even more confusingly unusable results. Writing moves in Trim is now an exercise in futility.

It only occurs using the Mackie to write fader moves - if I move an on-screen fader, everything works fine (although this "solution" defeats the object of having the control surfaces). It also happens regardless of which MC fader I'm using, so it's not a hardware weirdness on the Mackie.

I don't recall having this problem before the DP4.5 upgrade. I'm on DP4.52, OS 10.3.8, MIDI Driver 1.3, MIDI Express 128, Dual 2G G5.

Help! Ideas? This is one of those moments when you start wondering if you should put a big sheepskin jacket on and buy PT

Thanks. Paul.

[Timeline]

Hey that's interesting, have to try it.

Have you noticed this one.

Write a latch to the end of a song with a few moves all along the way.

Go back and trim it moving it all alon the way.

No go back and write a latch over the top in a fixed position and see if the level says constant.

It may take a few cycles of this but eventually you will see data creep.

<small>[ April 23, 2005, 08:53 AM: Message edited by: Timeline ]</small>

[paulhurt]

Well, the more I investigate this one, the more messed up it appears to be.

I still have strange behaviour with latch... writing data *ahead* of the playback position and therefore wrecking your previously-written levels.

Now, tell me, am I going crazy, or has Trim Touch behaviour completely changed too? Surely the right way for it to work is...

i) fader (now in trim mode) automatically centres itself to begin with

ii) Press play

iii) Touch the fader and move, and you trim the level. Say you add another 12dB for some reason.

iv) Let go, and the level returns to where it was in the original automation data.

Okay, so it's doing that right. However, when you release the fader, it doesn't return to the centre position. So when you next touch it, the level immediately jumps up 12dB again. You have to return the fader to the centre position manually. Maybe it always did this and I've just forgotten.

But (and this is REALLY weird), say you add 12dB, then let go. The automation data in the graphic window shows the level ramping back to where it was. BUT... the audio I'm *hearing* is still 12dB louder!!! Huh? That MUST be wrong!!!?

Is this all just me? Is no one else having these problems? I'll admit, it's been a couple of months since I did any serious DP work (during which period I installed the 4.5 upgrade), but I don't recall the automation doing anything unexpected like this in previous versions.

Right now, the automation is unusable. This is a big problem for me. Please folks, tell me if you get the same behaviour...

(on the bright side, I couldn't reproduce your "creep" problems - latch seemed to overwrite everything properly - as long as you don't move the fader of course!)

Paul.

[paulhurt]

I should add that this Trim Touch issue with the audio playback remaining at the trimmed level even after you release the fader happens if you move the mixer faders with the mouse, as well as with the Mackie Control.

Help? Someone? Does your 4.52 work properly in this department? If so, I'll think about a complete reinstall. Thanks.

[Timeline]

Ya know I have not actually used my Mackie control in a while
so all my observations are mouse mixing.

When I started overdubbing and mixing a bit about 4 months ago I was using it but because I'm just trimming up things I have left it alone.

I will try to check it out in the next few weeks and let you know.
Send me a direct email eir@ispwest.com and we'll speak.

Thanks
Gary

[paulhurt]

I'm getting to the bottom of at least some of this.

I'd forgotten that the 4.5 upgrade leaves 4.12 in place, so I opened one of my 4.52 mixes in 4.12 to see what happened.

Firstly, the "occasional automation point written in front of playback head" bug is not there in 4.12. Everything works as it should, I couldn't break it in latch mode with the Mackie Control. I might just go back to 4.12 for now.

I am guessing that this might be another symptom of these reported MIDI problems in 4.52 (the vast majority of my projects in DP are all audio, so I'm not dealing with MIDI that much). Seeing as the Mackie is sending heaps of MIDI when you move a fader, isn't it very possible (probable?) that the latch automation bug is a MIDI-related issue? It's as if it's getting the time-stamping of an incoming event wrong, and deciding that the event happened a fraction of a second later than it actually did (effectively re-ordering a couple of fader position events, and putting one the wrong side of the play head - causing disaster).

Imagine if this happened with note-on/offs. What if a note-on was registered by DP as having happened later than it really did? If you played a very short stab of a note it would be possible for DP to position the note-on after the note-off! Equals stuck note. Hmmm.

As for the other issue about Trim Touch mode... it worked exactly the same way in 4.12. So that one's down to me, sorry. However, it's still a stupid way for the automation to work. If you think about it, when you release the fader, the channel drops out of "automation record" and into "automation record-ready". All the while, the automation play button is lit. So you'd imagine that if it's not recording automation, it's playing back the existing automation. Thing is, it isn't - the level you're hearing is not the level you'll hear next time you play that section back. This makes it impossible to mix in Trim Touch because as soon as you move then release a fader, you can't be sure that the mix you're hearing is the mix you're going to get.

When you release the fader in Trim Touch, I seriously think it should glide back to the centred null position. I'm pretty sure that's what Trim mode does on an SSL console when Snap is on (which would be the equivalent of DP's Trim Touch).

You know, things like beat detection might attract headlines at a trade show, but if MOTU want people to accept DP as a serious mixing tool (and it's pretty close), it'd be great if they paid more attention to some of the basic ergonomics (and there's lots more than just automation that could be improved if you ask me). It's already a well-trodden path after all, so it's not difficult. Just take some tips out of the big-boys books (e.g. SSL...)

As it is I can already hear those told-you-so's whispering: "pro-tools, why didn't you listen to me, pro-tools..."

Come on MOTU, just email me. I'm available on a free consultancy basis. As I suspect are a number of us!

Paul
LX3 Live Recording, London

[Fibes]

I'm using 4.52 and a MC but things are fine.

Which firmware version do you have in the MC?

I remember having issue before I upgraded but not the ones you speak of. At least i never noticed since the other issues were too screwed up to even try.

I'm running an MTPAV direct into the machine with the MC on channel one.

So far my only MIDI problems have been weird ghost playback with Reason.

Good luck.

[paulhurt]

Hey Fibes, thanks for the feedback.

I have firmware 1.02 in the MC. I'll admit, it's not an original Mackie Control, it's a Logic Control with the firmware update to make it behave like a Mackie Control.

However, I don't think it's the MC, because:

i) I've watched the MIDI output from it with MIDI Monitor. It's not doing anything unusual. Fader goes up (pitch bend values go up), fader goes down (pitch bend values go down again).

ii) It works just fine in 4.12. Same system, same MIDI driver (1.3)

I find it hard to see how it could be anything other than 4.52.

Have you checked for sure that your version of 4.52 isn't doing something weird (because it can be hard to spot at first)? Most easily seen when you have a track with "flat" automation i.e. no fader moves. Write some new automation into a flat section in Touch mode. Watch what happens in the graphic window as you write it.

Thanks again. I feel a reinstall coming on.

Paul

[giles117]

I dont think it is a firmware issue as I use v 1.02 and have yet to see this problem in 4.52. I TOUCH up stuff all the time.

[Fibes]

I've looked and it's not there on 2 of my projects... I'm not a newbie but just to make sure I'll check into it tomorrow night. Tonite i'll be chasing down some issues with the remote laptop...

[paulhurt]

Just to update y'all... nothing good to relate.

Deleted everything I could find MOTU related. Lots of permission rebuilding. Reinstalled 4.5 from CD. Same problem. Did update to 4.52, MIDI driver 1.3, latest firewire drivers. No change. Tried disconnecting extender and just using MC main unit. No change. Tried automating one of the MOTU demo songs in case it was something to do with my project. Same bug.

Been fairly solidly trying to fix this for two days now, and I'm fast running out of ideas. Also two days with no response from MOTU tech support... Some acknowledgement that they've even received my email would be nice...

I'm at a bit of a loss. But thanks for everyone's input so far. Will keep working on it and let you know. Can I just say how much this sucks though?

Paul

[Timeline]

Seeing as the Mackie is sending heaps of MIDI when you move a fader, isn't it very possible (probable?) that the latch automation bug is a MIDI-related issue? It's as if it's getting the time-stamping of an incoming event wrong, and deciding that the event happened a fraction of a second later than it actually did (effectively re-ordering a couple of fader position events, and putting one the wrong side of the play head - causing disaster).

Just checking...

You did shut off your MIDI interface and try it?

One other thing,, Open up clockworks and reset to factory settings.. Just a thought.

<small>[ April 26, 2005, 04:50 PM: Message edited by: Timeline ]</small>

[paulhurt]

Have tried two different MIDI interfaces now (not *that* different - my MIDI Express 128, and a Fastlane).

No change. Clockworks not relevant to either of these interfaces.

Disappointingly, the USB MIDI Driver 1.3.1, released today, hasn't made any difference either.

Have also tried with Bluetooth switched off. You know, I'm taking random potshots in the dark now... I don't know what's left to try (short of reformatting my entire G5 and reinstallling *everything* - which I'm reluctant to do, Final Cut Pro, Adobe CS, etc, etc, etc all take forever to install.)

I kind of need a spare Mac I can use as a test platform! Come on Apple, hurry up and update your iBook range

P

[fokof]

Does the problem happens with all faders on the MC ? Can it be bad faders ?

I have an MC with 4.52 , G5, midisport 4*4, never had that problem....

[paulhurt]

Nope, any fader, either on the Mackie Control, or on the extender.

Definitely something to do with 4.52, since it works fine with 4.12. I'm *this* close (holds fingers very close together) to reformatting my HD and reinstalling OS X and DP. I'm holding off until I try my MC on someone else's DP4.52 installation (next week - thanks D). If it works okay on their rig then I'll bite the bullet, trash my whole machine (ugh! Its FCP I'm not looking forward to reinstalling) and start over.

By the way, if you actually want to see what's happening, I've done a screen-capture movie. Go to:

http://www.lx3.co.uk/notsosecret

See the problem?

P