Questions: Those of us drooling over a new Mac Pro

[Renaissance Man]

I'm willing to bet there are many UnicorNationers' just like me that are due to upgrade their Macs. And still more who thought it wise to wait until the 2008 release and take advantage of the upgrades to the ••œstandard" model Mac offerings. Here are just a few questions pertaining to setting up a new Mac specifically as a dedicated native music machine running DP and/or Logic. Please feel free to add any you may have.

1) Is there any advantage to upgrading to the NVIDIA GeForce 8800 GT with its 512MB of GDDR3 video memory? Will this ease processor loading and better render things like wave forms, meters and such?

2) How much memory is enough and how much is overkill? (Assuming that the machine is being taxed fully under a high track count project with lots of plug-ins and VI's).

3) Are the specified hard drives able to keep pace with the monster processing power of the machine, or is some other solution needed (i.e. multiple drives or a RAID configuration)?

4) What is the best approach if multiple drives or a RAID configuration is called for? How hard is it to do? How many drives are needed? Can the Mac achieve any of these objectives without extra hardware (i.e. a RAID card or whatever)? I have only a very BASIC understanding of a RAID configuration but nothing beyond that.

5) Is there any advantage to bumping up to the 3 GHz or 3.2 GHz processors?

Rather than assume bigger and faster is better, I'd like to know what the "nominal" base machine under heavy load should be; what upgrades are called for and recommended, and what upgrades are a waste of money.
Christopher

[kurtl]

Just got the MacPro 2.8 Octo, the video card thing I don't know, maybe you could find out on Macrumors.com. Barefeats.com has great info about RAM. It is best to have at least 4 of the same RAM sticks. I bought 4 X 2Gigs from Transintl.com for a total of 10. Magicdave said DP can only see 4 gigs. But there's always future growth. I tried the VI demo that came with DP 5.0, that one that uses the DP VI's, it uses about 4 % of the CPU's power. It's a MF'n sceamer. Haven't tried an audio project yet. That's next. If you use a lot of VI's in real time, and it will be able to, I'd get a fast drive cause DP 6 will be able to bounce VI's in bounce to disc. Save your $ and get more RAM and a good drive, get the 2.8 Octo.

[Frodo]

I'm willing to bet there are many UnicorNationers' just like me that are due to upgrade their Macs. And still more who thought it wise to wait until the 2008 release and take advantage of the upgrades to the ••œstandard" model Mac offerings. Here are just a few questions pertaining to setting up a new Mac specifically as a dedicated native music machine running DP and/or Logic. Please feel free to add any you may have.

1) Is there any advantage to upgrading to the NVIDIA GeForce 8800 GT with its 512MB of GDDR3 video memory? Will this ease processor loading and better render things like wave forms, meters and such?

Good question. At one point MOTU suggested that I get another card, but I wasn't convinced it was absolutely necessary. I did upgrade the card in my G5 when it fried and noticed incredible improvement, but that doesn't mean that DP benefitted in performance per se.

If you're doing serious Photoshop or FCP work, I would suggest that a better card would be in order-- but not for workaday DAW work necessarily. There are better upgrade investments to make at the outset than the video card, and you can also upgrade later.

2) How much memory is enough and how much is overkill? (Assuming that the machine is being taxed fully under a high track count project with lots of plug-ins and VI's).

How much depends upon your software and your workflow. My basic benchmark for 32-bit threading is as follows:

4GB for DP, and 4GB for every standalone instance of a plugin you will use. For the new 8 Cores, I would think that one could make good use of 6-8 GB of RAM when a DAW is at work.

One thing to anticipate is the eventual switch over to 64-bit threading. Chances are, if you get a new computer now you probably won't get another one much sooner than the warranty wears out. This means that some consideration might be given to the type of RAM to be installed.

If you bought RAM sticks in smaller sizes today and wanted to expand your memory later, you'd be faced with a decision to remove the sticks you bought today in favor of larger sticks later on. If that's the case, it may be tricky to sell that RAM later because Apple is constantly upgrading its architecture to employ different RAM.

The new machines have 8 slots for RAM with up to 32GB of RAM being supported. That means investing in 4GB sticks from the outset to minimize the trouble later on of having to exchange or sell RAM which may not be supported in machines released as soon as this time next year.

Overkill is relative-- and it is changing as we speak. 32GB of RAM sounds ridiculous today, but with companies such as VSL and East West releasing audio engines that now address RAM outside of the host, this means that all available RAM on your computer can indeed be put to good use.

When DP and other plugins are converted to 64-bit threading, the entire 4GB RAM "prison" will be a thing of the past.

3) Are the specified hard drives able to keep pace with the monster processing power of the machine, or is some other solution needed (i.e. multiple drives or a RAID configuration)?

Again, it depends on what you're using and how much you are using. Most people on average can make the most of the Mac's internal SATA ports for purposes of virtual instruments and such.

Those who are running large orchestra libraries or video or sound effects, etc., will quickly outgrow their hard drive configs. Some control can be had on how quickly one outgrows their hard drives by offloading/archiving older projects onto DVD-R or onto a separate firewire drive.

But many people are now finding that having some type of eSATA configuration quite useful. This does not have to be a RAID, per se. There are pros and cons with RAID configs, but not all external hard drives are RAIDs in terms of all the discs in an enclosure being used as one single hard drive. Some configurations are JBOD (just a bunch of discs) in an enclosure. Wikipedia and other sites have detailed descriptions of what a RAID is and how it works.

Before you move forward, just consider that internal drive bays first on the MacPro. If you need to expand, there are PCIe cards that will allow you to connect lots of hard drives. Currently, I have a Sonnet PCIe card with four ports. It supports up to 20 hard drives (5 HDs in 4 different enclosures).

4) What is the best approach if multiple drives or a RAID configuration is called for? How hard is it to do? How many drives are needed? Can the Mac achieve any of these objectives without extra hardware (i.e. a RAID card or whatever)? I have only a very BASIC understanding of a RAID configuration but nothing beyond that.

Again, how many are needed and the "best" approach depends entirely on what software you're running. It's a question of quantity and of how you are using this software.

For virtual instruments, let's say you have 4-5 different large grand piano sample libraries, and that all of your piano libraries will *fit* onto one hard drive. Chances are you will only be using one piano at a time, so putting all of your pianos on one hard drive might be a wise thing to do. This means one drive will be dedicated to the busy task of streaming samples for the piano.

However, if you have an orchestral library and a piano library and a drum library and a sound effects library, running all of these libraries from one hard drive at the same time will likely overtax the hard drive and impact negatively on performance. It requires some careful planning with your instruments libraries' hard drive needs to make sure that one library doesn't compete with the other for data seek and transfer cycles.

5) Is there any advantage to bumping up to the 3 GHz or 3.2 GHz processors?

IMHO, not really-- especially not for the difference in price. If there are three models, generally the middle model is the best bang for the buck. On the new models, even the 2.8 is looking juicier than most any other entry-level model I've ever seen.

Rather than assume bigger and faster is better, I'd like to know what the "nominal" base machine under heavy load should be; what upgrades are called for and recommended, and what upgrades are a waste of money.
Christopher

And again, much of this hinges on what software you are running and how much. The new machines with 8GB RAM will be a great start. It will be a while before 64-bit threading or 64-bit "cheating" will be standard.

If you don't have any of East West's PLAY libraries or VSL-- or if you are not planning to get either of these, I would say that the need to get more than 8GB of RAM is not necessary, until such time DP and other software goes to 64-bit.

Hard drives: start with the internal SATAs. I would recommend adding two internals to start for virtual instruments. You could add a third internal to use for your DP projects because you don't want to store your DP projects on your main System drive. If you are running video on certain projects, you might want to consider just attaching a firewire drive for that purpose.

I've been a strong advocate for PCI audio, but these new MacPros have upped the firewire bus from 33Mhz to 2.5Ghz. I've not tested these, but this is a welcome and long overdue improvement. We just may be entering a new era for firewire, one that threatens to reverse my opinion about it, having abandoned it a while ago.

Make a list of the software you want to run and take special notes of the RAM requirements. Pay attention to the "minimum" requirements and the "recommended" requirements. Some people read the minimum requirements and assume that 2GB of RAM will be enough for everything. Not true. RAM needs are always an aggregate consideration, as are hard drive requirements.

For a new MacPro starter kit:

2.8 or 3G, 6 GB RAM, 3 internal SATAs 300-750MB (depending on software storage requirements).

Even that might be considered as "overkill" for a lot of people, but it does factor in some room to grow within the first year of use rather than to limit things to today's use on older machines. If it's too much, trim things down to 4GB RAM and 2 internal SATAs. You can always expand later.

[alobonzo]

Videocard ins't important for audio tasks, but if you want to do some stuff with FCP or Motion believe me you will need at least the 8800.

[Frodo]

Videocard ins't important for audio tasks, but if you want to do some stuff with FCP or Motion believe me you will need at least the 8800.

Hmm. I thought I'd mentioned that...

I agree that audio is not involved with the video card behavior, at least not so directly. DP does have preferences that give a boost to MAS at the expense of graphics performance.

But I'd also like to add that if one is seeing their QuickScribe window getting scrambled or is experiencing funny screen redraws or perhaps sluggish wiper behavior on busy projects more often than they'd like, a better card *might* benefit general computer performance.

I also agree that the issue is rare enough that a few hundred dollars to upgrade the card is best spent on graphics-heavy apps where world-class rendering cannot be compromised.

[OldTimey]

i just helped my kid brother configure a new mac pro...

1) Is there any advantage to upgrading to the NVIDIA GeForce 8800 GT with its 512MB of GDDR3 video memory? Will this ease processor loading and better render things like wave forms, meters and such?

definitely an advantage. it's cheap, and much much better than the stock ATI card. Much of Leopards visual "flair" relies on the GPU (CoreGraphics etc) to speed it up. The better the GPU, the more responsive the OS will be, and it will hold up when 10.6 introduces holographic displays (joking). But yes, i recommend the better gpu.

2) How much memory is enough and how much is overkill? (Assuming that the machine is being taxed fully under a high track count project with lots of plug-ins and VI's).

the more, usually the better. If DP6 can address more than 4GB of RAM, and you are running a lot of standalone samplers or VI's, 8+GB might not be a bad idea. Then again, for normal audio DAW work, just audio and plugins, 4GB is probably adequate. Just run top in terminal every now and then while working a fully loaded session. If you see "(0)0 pageouts"
Then you really don't need more RAM. If you see a big number outside of the parentheses then you need more RAM because you are faulting and paging to disk too often.

3) Are the specified hard drives able to keep pace with the monster processing power of the machine, or is some other solution needed (i.e. multiple drives or a RAID configuration)?

hard drives have always been a major bottleneck. it's why we use RAM and Cache...of course 10K drives and RAID configs will help you get the most out of your machine, but can get pricey. I don't recommend ANY RAID configuration that isn't mirrored or has a dedicated controller that can handle parity disk creation. Stripe two drives, without backup, you are asking for trouble. one drive goes down, all your data is lost.

4) What is the best approach if multiple drives or a RAID configuration is called for? How hard is it to do? How many drives are needed? Can the Mac achieve any of these objectives without extra hardware (i.e. a RAID card or whatever)? I have only a very BASIC understanding of a RAID configuration but nothing beyond that.

partly answered in 3), for best performance and safety, mirrored striped drives. RAID 1+0. So RAID 1 two sets of two drives, and then RAID 0 those two mirrored sets for best performance and safety. Just google "raid" for tons of information.

5) Is there any advantage to bumping up to the 3 GHz or 3.2 GHz processors?

unless you are doing 3D rendering on a schedule or trying to find new prime numbers, you'd probably be better off getting the stock 2.8Ghz and spending the extra money on RAM and HD space. It ends up being more economical to buy lower end machines and upgrade more frequently. So get the 2.8 and buy a new mac pro in 4 years as opposed to getting the 3.2 and buying a new one in 5 or 6.

[bdr]

I have just bought a 2.8 MacPro. After thorough reading of this site I decided on system drive, separate 7200 audio drive, and 2 RAID-O-ed Raptors(10,000 RPM). I know the safe advice is to not RAID-0 but I'm only using those drives for VI's which if disaster happens I can reload, or convince my 12 year old to reinstall overnight if I let him stay up and watch the English Soccer while he does it...

Only have the stock 2GB RAM at present, am kvetching over how much more to buy. I read the Barefeats RAM test and it seems they were saying 4 sticks are better than 2, and since I'll be using PLAY...,well, I've already blown the budget on the new beast, may as well go the whole hog.

Brett

[monkey man]

Hey Brett - a fellow Melbournian who also grabbed the 2.8, eh?

My 2cents on the video card - 256MB video RAM ought to be enough to render... waveforms.

The RAM is so expensive, I'm going to wait 'till I've saved a bit and the price drops.

Last thought: Do it!

[Aramis]

Hello !
I have ordered mine this week . I have choosen the 3 gigahertz one with 2 gigs of ram wich I will upgrade to 8 in a certain futur . I have been wondering about the video card too . And I have decided to put my money on the storage instead . So I have choosen the default graphic card and 2 Tera for hard disks .

My next move will be to migrate from my G5 and RME audio card to this MacPro and whatever I will decide for audio interfacing .

I have been so well desserve by the RME pci interface that I am very uncertain about what to do .
The MOTU new 828mk3 firewire interface is very attractive .
Aramis

I'm willing to bet there are many UnicorNationers' just like me that are due to upgrade their Macs. And still more who thought it wise to wait until the 2008 release and take advantage of the upgrades to the ••œstandard" model Mac offerings. Here are just a few questions pertaining to setting up a new Mac specifically as a dedicated native music machine running DP and/or Logic. Please feel free to add any you may have.

1) Is there any advantage to upgrading to the NVIDIA GeForce 8800 GT with its 512MB of GDDR3 video memory? Will this ease processor loading and better render things like wave forms, meters and such?

2) How much memory is enough and how much is overkill? (Assuming that the machine is being taxed fully under a high track count project with lots of plug-ins and VI's).

3) Are the specified hard drives able to keep pace with the monster processing power of the machine, or is some other solution needed (i.e. multiple drives or a RAID configuration)?

4) What is the best approach if multiple drives or a RAID configuration is called for? How hard is it to do? How many drives are needed? Can the Mac achieve any of these objectives without extra hardware (i.e. a RAID card or whatever)? I have only a very BASIC understanding of a RAID configuration but nothing beyond that.

5) Is there any advantage to bumping up to the 3 GHz or 3.2 GHz processors?

Rather than assume bigger and faster is better, I'd like to know what the "nominal" base machine under heavy load should be; what upgrades are called for and recommended, and what upgrades are a waste of money.
Christopher

[Renaissance Man]

I finally stopped the hand wringing and ordered a Mac Pro 2.8Ghz 8 core, everything stock (plus applecare).
I also ordered the 424Pcie card and upgraded to DP5.13 (hope MOTU allows me a free upgrade when DP6 is finally released. I was trying wait but couldn't stand it any longer).
Now I have to find the best place to purchase memory and two 500Gb hard drives.
Any suggestions?

[kurtl]

OWC Macsales.com, or Transintl.com for Memory and drives. I got 8 gigs, 4X 2 gig from Transintl, they seem good so far. More RAM will mean more heat as the RAM sticks have huge heat sinks. You will be blown away by the speed and power of a Macpro 2.8/8.

[newrigel]

Here is the solution for a HARDWARE RAID! I already ordered it!
http://www.caldigit.com/RAIDCard/raidcard_index.html
This solution will make DP rock!
What's really trick about this card is it uses the Mac Pros internal drives as a RAID...
If you go HW RAID this is the solution to Apples card... way cheaper and better!!
By the way... I haven't even been able to max out my 2.66 yet let alone the 3.2 Ghz MP. The on die 12 MB of L2 cache on the new Harpertowns is what really makes em responsive! I always wait to upgrade my HW and see what others have gone through It's just like Leopard... I just have it sitting here for that day when it all works...
I'm waiting for August!

[daveyboy]

I finally stopped the hand wringing and ordered a Mac Pro 2.8Ghz 8 core, everything stock (plus applecare).
I also ordered the 424Pcie card and upgraded to DP5.13 (hope MOTU allows me a free upgrade when DP6 is finally released. I was trying wait but couldn't stand it any longer).
Now I have to find the best place to purchase memory and two 500Gb hard drives.
Any suggestions?

I'm going for 750 or 1 TB drives when the time comes. Cost difference isn't that huge. Also try Newegg.com for drives and get the 16mb cache (which I think is pretty standard in those sizes).

[Renaissance Man]

Just ordered 16Gb RAM (8 x 2GB sticks) and 2- WD "server class" 500Gb HD's from OWC. Hopefully this will all come together in a week or less.

[mhschmieder]

I'm still kind of confused over whether the Mac Pro got pipped yet again or whether this is in reference to the fairly recent updates.

The Apple website is getting more confusing every week, and it is becoming more difficult to determine what's new over there as they are putting such strong emphasis on the consumer toys.

It seems there's also some confusion or concern over possible changing memory requirements -- either with the latest updates or with the expected updates when the new chipset gets released (Pynryn or something like that) -- probably around late spring or summer 2008.

It's slightly strange that the PCI spec has been bumped again (though in a backwards-compatible, or is that forward-compatible -- I always get confused as to what perspective that label is used), just as manufacturers such as RME and Apogee are just getting their updated PCI-x solutions out the door!