hammer keyboards : Fatar/Studiologic or CME ?

daniel.sneed · Post by **daniel.sneed** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:07 am

I intend to get a 5 octaves (only) notes *hammer* master keyboard (=full weighted).

Fatar/Studiologic already makes one 61 notes : VMK-161 plus.
CME has anounced one, will ship in 2008 : ZSC 64.

Any thoughts and reports on your experiences with one, or both, of these companies' products would be much appreciated.

What are your *musical* feelings when playing piano, or other very dynamic samples, thru them ?

I'm NOT a trained pianist, but singer, guitar and banjo player. I own a semi-weighted Novation X-Station61 which I'm very pleased with for most of my sample playing. But playing piano thru it has been sort of a poor experience for me. Perhaps cause I also use a rather good sounding wood piano.

Spikey Horse · Post by **Spikey Horse** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:14 am

Quick reply - have you searched Uni for an answer?

Similar questions have come up quite a lot over the last few months with some lengthy-ish discussion I think!

daniel.sneed · Post by **daniel.sneed** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:21 am

Thanks Spikey, but can't find anything on the 61 notes offer, which is quite a new thread. They're all on 88 notes, which I don't want for different reasons.
Choice is much restricted in this area yet AFAIK.

npatton · Post by **npatton** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 10:40 am

Earlier this year (Feb?), Keyboard magazine did reviews on all the major controllers, including these. You might check out their site for the article.

n

TOD · Post by **TOD** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 10:42 am

npatton wrote:Earlier this year (Feb?), Keyboard magazine did reviews on all the major controllers, including these. You might check out their site for the article.

n

I remember that article and the Fatar's got a really good review.

Shooshie · Post by **Shooshie** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:09 pm

Fatars are good. That's one of the reasons I got a K2600 -- they're made with Fatar keyboards. Also, I would not have a keyboard with less than 88 keys. If you're a pianist, a small keyboard is VERY confining. Getting good results out of any keyboard depends on several things:

1) the actual physical feel of the keyboard. If this doesn't work for you, there's no need to go any further. Fatars feel a lot like a good grand. A little bounce, but not bad. I can do double and triple strikes on a Fatar with no problem. Anyone who doubts can watch Jordan Rudess do it on some of his Ethno Instrument demos (Motu web site, or YouTube) He does a balalaika effect on one of them, where he's double or triple striking the notes.
2) the range of MIDI control possible. You should be able to strike a velocity of 01 all the way to 128, with every value in between. I have sat and tested my K2600, and have literally achieved this.
3) the response curve in the keyboard itself. Most keyboards allow for a variety of curves, but they generally label them with iffy names like "hard, but smooth." That doesn't tell you much. You just have to try them.
4) the response curve of the patch, sample, or VI that receives the note. If you don't like one, try another. Or reset it. Ivory has quite a nice range of adjustments. So does Akoustik Piano. Most VI's involving keyboards do.
5) your own keyboard ability. Playing a scale where every note is precisely a 12 or 24 is very hard to do and takes a lot of practice (and is probably not possible closer than + or - 5 or 10 degrees). On some keyboards it's not even remotely possible. I think my DX7-II keyboard only sent out about 20 levels of velocity. Some VI's like Akoustik Piano display the velocity of the last note played. I find this to be a tremendous practice aid, and I use it often.

The Fatar in my K2600 has stood up to the rigors of all the above. I don't think you can ask for more, as there's really nothing left. I recommend Fatar 88's to anyone who needs pianistically-fine control over their keyboard. I forget what they're called in the USA, but that's up above in this thread somewhere.

Shooshie

daniel.sneed · Post by **daniel.sneed** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:32 am

Thanks npatton. Keyboard Magazine web site have been very informative to me on my picky questions.
Thanks also Shooshie. As ever, your inputs makes much sense.

Just for fun : AFAIK Wolfgang Amadeus used to play a 61 notes pianoforte. First extended keyboards (5 and 1/2 oct.) came just 2 years after he left earth !

twistedtom · Post by **twistedtom** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 3:42 am

I think the feel how the keys react to your playing is very important. for this you just have to try them. You did not say why you want less than 88 keys, if there is not a complelling reason to get 61 keys I would think hard about getting a full 88 key board.

daniel.sneed · Post by **daniel.sneed** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 5:10 am

Just got that Studiologic VMK-161 plus.
Wonderfull touch. Each sample comes to life. Even for the non pianist guy I am.
61 key is just what I need for my music... and my back.
It's only 15kg and less than 1 meter long !

IAMLFO · Post by **IAMLFO** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 7:46 am

Although this post is either a) beating a dead horse or b) overly redundant I will add a plug for Fatar/StudioLogic. The weighted keys are the best around IMHO, beating out the likes of digital pianos and Kurzweil boards.

-Kevin

Shooshie · Post by **Shooshie** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 12:25 pm

IAMLFO wrote:Although this post is either a) beating a dead horse or b) overly redundant I will add a plug for Fatar/StudioLogic. The weighted keys are the best around IMHO, beating out the likes of digital pianos and Kurzweil boards.

-Kevin

Er... Kurzweil boards ARE Fatars!

Well, maybe it's just the 2600 line. But my 2600 is definitely an 88 key Fatar, as stated in the manual.

Shooshie

IAMLFO · Post by **IAMLFO** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 2:53 pm

Shooshie wrote:
IAMLFO wrote:Although this post is either a) beating a dead horse or b) overly redundant I will add a plug for Fatar/StudioLogic. The weighted keys are the best around IMHO, beating out the likes of digital pianos and Kurzweil boards.

-Kevin
Er... Kurzweil boards ARE Fatars! Well, maybe it's just the 2600 line. But my 2600 is definitely an 88 key Fatar, as stated in the manual.

Shooshie

Right, I think a few Kurzweil models were Fatar based. I should have said non-Fatar based Kurzweil boards. Thanks for keeping me honest, Sooshie!

-Kevin

mhschmieder · Post by **mhschmieder** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 2:41 am

It makes a different which Fatar action. Most Kurzes use lower-grade Fatar actioon; although the K-series to my fingers has always felt a bit more pro than their other kbds.

The upcoming PC3 has been announced as having TP40L in the US and TP40H in Europe. Apparently the same as the SP88(?).

I recently bought the Studiologic VMK188plus after almost two years of research on what to get. The Keyboard article helped a lot, as did all the bug reports on CME (and they keep rolling in). Reliability at a gig is critical for me; if you're studio-only, the extra features of the CME might trump that.

Both have great feel. As I haven't had a chance to try a VX8 or the upcoming streamlined CME series that incljudes hammer action in the 61-key board, it wouldn't be fair to assume they are the same as the UF-series as I have heard conflicting reports on whether this is the case or not.

But overall, a simplification of my experience with the VMK is that escapement is slower than on the CME but is workable if you strike the second and third time further up the key (away from the front). On an acoustic piano, each action is different and you adjust to the piano, so no biggie. The VMK series uses the Grand Touch action from Fatar. It is a graded hammer action and the highest-grade action they have ever made. And only $550 during the Xmas sales; vs. $920 for the CME VX8 (for the original poster, the 61-key models are more of interest, but CME's slimline series is not yet out so I don't have the final specs/prices).

Overall I'd say the Studiologic has a more solid feel than the CME UF series and more ably covers the entire dynamic range. There is no response mapping like the CME, but Keyboard argues it isn;t necessary as they "got it right". No side-to-side wiggling for sure, and no pain after hours of playing (there's a soft landing). So even though action is heavier than CME, it isn't tiring to play.

Where it lets me down is in programmability. I can live with that as I have waited 27 years for an action that I like in a digital keyboard, and can just dedicate it to my GEM RP-x instead of my earlier grand plan of using it as a master keyboard. I would argue that the Studiologic series CANNOT be used as a master Keyboard in a complex multi-module MIDI setup; whereas the CME can as long as you can depend on it to not be buggy and unstable.

Here's the problem in a nutshell: the VMK series can ONLY broadcast on ONE MIDI channel at a time! PERIOD!!! So forget sending to multiple MIDI modules -- with or without a MIDI patchbay or various MIDI Solutions mergers, thru boxes, routers, etc. You simply have to use note range alone, pick a MIDI channel, and use it for all modules and program performance setups on each module to match the note ranges that should trigger them.

This of course also makes it harder to integrate the VMK into a multi-keyboard setup where maybe you want it to control sounds where you would like weighted action and maybe use an organ waterfall action or synth action for other sounds. Fat chance you can integrate those together unless you pick and choose sound modules to dedicate solely to one controller or the other.

For this reason, this may be a short-term solution for me, but I LOVE the action. So if Kurzweil's PC3 surprises me and feels way better than the PC2, I may make the switch later on. One thing for sure is that the PC3 will be the most advanced Master Keyboard ever, with full patching capabilities on-board and merging/splitting anything you want going into and out of the module. This is also true to a lesser extent with the PC2 rack (unique for a rack to have such capabilities), and probably the K-series.

Speaking of which, some of the older K-series keyboards can be had quite cheap right now. They have a K2500S at the Concord CA Guitar Centre for well under $1000 at the moment (I'm afraid posting the exact price would break forum rules). It was lower still a month earlier but I think someone figured out they had way underpriced it.

Albert Bacardit · Post by **Albert Bacardit** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 3:56 am

I've owned a Studiologic sl-61 for about six years now. My studio is tiny so it's quite functional for me because I have to move things from place to place and the keyboard is light as a feather.
However, I'm not pleased with its use live. After the third gig it began going nuts and let me down on a couple of occasions. You all know how it feels when you are to start the number and get no sound, don't you

? You'll never forget those faces any more ...
That's why I got a second-hand Korg 01 W Pro and been delighted since.
In short: great for studio, but not sturdy enough for the road.
Hope it helps.

daniel.sneed · Post by **daniel.sneed** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 6:03 am

Yes, Albert, I feel your pain, even times later. So I'll be cautious !

Till now the VMK-161plus has been very reliable, and seems very sturdy, quite rock-built.
However, for the few next month's gigs, I'll take my X-Station61 wich is very reliable, and very back-friendly.

If I come to need a hammer keyboard live, I'll take a second safety-keyboard (got plenty of them now !).
Stories about bad behavior of CME keyboards during live gigs have been reported also on this board.