Pianopinions please....

[abinning]

Hi everyone....new to MachFive (and a returning user of DP) following an extended break from music making with my Mac. Boy have things moved on in 7 years!!

I'll probably post a few questions on these here boards while I get up and running again - hopefully all you nice folks can help me on my way.

My first question is about the piano.

First off, I fully appreciate that 'what is the best piano sound' is a stupid question to ask. Everyone has their own personal opinion on which sounds best, and indeed there are so many different acoustic pianos of varying quality and maintained to varying degrees. Those who play the piano will have different personal experiences of what one sounds like, and will have definite personal preferences - and we hear so many different instruments on recordings, again produced with various recording techniques.

Personally, I have been lucky (in a past life) to have sat at the business end of a Steinway (model B) for many hours a day. I've played (and performed, again in a past life) on many different instruments, from Steinways to Yamahas, Bluthners to Bosendorfers. My 'old friend' will always be the Steinway, and it would seem with the technology available today, I could almost have one of my own - albeit in software format, and without having to sell a kidney.

I was excited to try the 8Gb 'German' grand which came free (!) with MachFive, and whilst it is very nice, it lacks a certain something - for me anyway. I can't quite put my finger on it, but I think there's not enough variance in the timbre - soft isn't soft enough, and loud isn't big/sharp/resounding enough? Hopefully this makes sense! I can see where the velocity splits are, and from the rules there doesn't appear to be any soft-pedal samples available, so maybe 8Gb just isn't enough. On that though, why does the touted 8Gb piano only appear as a 191Mb patch? Maybe there's some tweaking I can do in MachFive to improve this - EQ doesn't do it, so maybe some filtering would help?

I've also downloaded trial versions of both the Pianoteq and TruePianos offerings. Pianoteq sounds quite similar to the German grand, and TruePianos reminds me of a Yamaha grand - it's quite bright, and would probably suit well as a bread-and-butter piano sound in many mixes. I do like the Pianoteq instrument - it's not perfect, but there is more 'colour' than either the TruePianos or 8Gb German grand.

I know that personal opinions come into things here, but I would really appreciate some input from those who have 'fed their MachFive' with another piano library, or who use another piano VI such as Ivory. I can't afford to buy lots of different VIs in the hope that one will sound like my 'old friendly model B', however, some of the Ivory MP3's sound very convincing, so I'm particularly interested to hear from those of you that use this with (or indeed without) Digital Performer.

One final note: I think even the 'Universal' piano patch from MachFive's DVD1 would be quite sufficient in a mix, and with the German Grand a far superior sample is available, however, I'm looking for the best solution for solo performance. The closer to a playable Steinway, the happier I think I'll be - whether I need to feed MachFive, or buy another VI.....

Any advice would be very much appreciated.

[Frodo]

I actually don't have the MachFive piano, but I can tell you that Ivory's collection with Italian Grand are about the most playable pianos on the market. At full whack, it's 12 layers and 19+ GB. As a result, there will be a certain complexity and sophistication that is just not going to be available with a smaller sampled piano.

That's not to say that the MachFive piano is not good. While I haven't heard it myself, by all accounts it's better than the Bosendorfer that shipped with M5v1, and even that piano was usable on the right project.

Akoustik from NI comes to mind, which I've heard and demo'd. I like it because it's different that Ivory with the plus of the Bechstein samples in particular. A self-contained rompler will likely be easier to customize since a rompler's edit features are piano-specific and less 'universal', imho.

This is not a put down of what MachFive tweaks can do.

If Ivory is out of the question and you want to make use of MachFive, I've been rather impressed with the PMI pianos-- Emperor (Bosendorfer) and Old Lady (Steinway D) are standouts.

http://www.sampletekk.com/proddetail.ph ... 002-FORMAT

http://www.postpiano.com/products/prod_ ... t=OLD+LADY

Give the mp3s a listen. The interpretations may be questionable, but perhaps you'll appreciate the tone of these. PMI has other collections besides.

As for PianoTeq and TruePianos, you almost can't put them in the same category because they are not sample-based. I will say this about TruePianos: it's inepxensive and an awful lot of VI in a 100 MEGAbyte package. It's a nuts and bolts interface that is perhaps better served with a good external EQ. It's likely that most DAW users have better EQ's and reverbs that could be affordably included with a rompler anyway. TruePianos is also adding new piano modules, so you're not bound to the one piano they include in their demo. Both PianoTeq and TruePianos can work extremely well in a track with other instruments. I'd still flock to Ivory for critical, up-front virutal piano tracking, but Old Lady and Emperor, I think, will make wonderful additions to my piano library.

Old Lady and Emperor just may have a new home with M5v2. Once my copy of M5v2 arrives, I'll figure out how to put that piano to good use as well.

[abinning]

Thanks Frodo! I don't mind paying for a 'proper' VI piano - and I will have to seriously check out both Ivory and Akoustik. The problem I have, is that neither of these are available as demos (unless I'm missing something), and you really can't get the 'feel' of how they play through MP3 samples. Still, I guess if the MP3's sound good........

It's got to be worth checking out the Old Lady and Emperor which I hadn't come across these before - thanks for the links! They don't seem very expensive, but I am confused about formats (and I think this may be something that I come up against when buying samples).

Which format would I choose to use with MachFive v2, as they are all supposed to work? I notice that the EXS format instruments (from my Garageband installation) are all available within M5, but the release times are too fast. I obviously don't have experience importing any other formats (EMU, Kurzweil, Giga or whatever), but I know that I don't really want to have to 're-build' the piano from multiple gigabytes of samples. I simply want to load up a fully-featured, instantly playable, authentic piano (with sympathetic resonance/pedal layers etc. etc. )? If that means using a dedicated VI, then so be it - I have no problems with that at all!

I still don't quite understand why the 8Gb 'German Grand' appears as a 191Mb patch, especially when you mention Ivory's 'full monty' is a whopping 19Gb..........

[Frodo]

Which format would I choose to use with MachFive v2, as they are all supposed to work? I notice that the EXS format instruments (from my Garageband installation) are all available within M5, but the release times are too fast. I obviously don't have experience importing any other formats (EMU, Kurzweil, Giga or whatever), but I know that I don't really want to have to 're-build' the piano from multiple gigabytes of samples....

It may take some basic attention to creating your velocity curve and/or most desired envelop settings, but release times can easily be adjusted by simply tweaking the release knob up a bit.

As for the format, "on paper" it should work find according to MachFive's compatibility chart. You could contact PMI directly for any known compatibility issues with this particular library.

The only format I know of that may not translate very well is Akai format. Mileage varies greatly-- some things work and some things don't. I shouldn't think GIGA or ESX would be a problem-- but an e-mail to tech support might make the difference between success and disappointment.

Yeah-- the price is something. If I recall, the price of Emperor and Old Lady was a lot higher not so long ago.

I still don't quite understand why the 8Gb 'German Grand' appears as a 191Mb patch, especially when you mention Ivory's 'full monty' is a whopping 19Gb..........

Only a portion of data is loaded into RAM where streaming is involved. Virtual Memory then 'pages' (calls for) the data from the appropriate hard drive(s) when needed. So large sample libraries in excess of the installed RAM can be used. Kind of complicated to explain quickly, but sometimes it's fun to work with the Activity Monitor open to see how each tasks impacts on your memory management and CPU usage.

[tim57var]

Here's my 2cents.... I've tried many pianos from Steinberg's "The Grand" to Akoustik Piano, and the Mach Five (v1 and v2) pianos. I keep coming back to Ivory - it's VERY musical and playable. The sounds are impeccably recorded, and you have a nice variety with the Yamaha (great for pop/rock), Steinway and Boesendorfer - I haven't popped for the Italian Grand yet. Of course, nothing is as wonderful as sitting down at a nice 7ft instrument in the studio with good mics on it, but Ivory does the trick far better than anything else. I agree, the M5v2 piano is not bad, but it doesn't feel very musical when you play it - I'm sure I'll end up using it in some track at some point, just to be different. Good Luck.

[abinning]

Thanks again folks.

It sounds like I need to buy Ivory! It's just a shame that I can't demo it....but it wouldn't be too expensive to give the 'Old Lady' a whirl. I'll contact tech support to find out which format would suit best. If it doesn't work out, then I'll have a 'basic' Steinway to go with my 'German Grand'. With the Unicornation special deal on TruePianos I could almost justify having that in my sonic palette too......

All I want is a sound which inspires me to play again, preferably that of my 'old friend' - and from your experiences it sounds like Ivory will do the trick (and bring a few buddies along to the party!).

Thanks to you both for your opinions. Perhaps you could provide some insight into the real-time performance of Ivory, and what I might expect from either my 8-core MacPro (2x750Gb internal RAID for audio files+8Gb RAM) or my MacBook Pro (with FW800 external drive for audio files +3Gb RAM)........?

[magicd]

I've posted this before but I think it's worth mentioning again.

The stock pianos in MachFive 2 use reverb effects. The stock effects assignments do not make use of the IR Verb.

Try this: Open the German Grand. Click the PRST button in the effects rack on the right. You'll see a reverb instantiated on the first insert. Change that to an IR Verb. Try several different IR Verbs and tweak their settings a bit.

To my ear, just this change brings a huge variation in the piano sound.

Magic Dave

[abinning]

Thanks Dave - I had tweaked the German Grand with a bit of convoluted reverb and EQ, and it does make a difference. I still feel that there are nuances missing - particularly the fact that striking the keys very softly doesn't sweeten the sound, and similarly giving it a good old whack doesn't result in extra resonance or brightness..... if you know what I mean!!

Again, the 'free' piano is great, and I'll use it - it just doesn't inspire me.

[chunkdz]

Frodo,
Which Ivory piano do you find yourself relying on the most?

[Shooshie]

May I chime in here?

First, let's reduce the playing field to three basic camps that most people would find interesting in one way or another:

1) Top-end sampled virtual pianos
2) Top-end modeled pianos
3) Mid-range workhorse mix pianos

Group 3: If you buy MachFive2, you get plenty of #3. The MachFive2 German Grand is the best example I've ever heard from that group. Those are the pianos that make out with fewer velocity layers, and they do not match the subtleties of the top-end pianos. They are usually great for a mix. You don't need Ivory for most mix situations.

Group 2: Many people prefer modeled pianos. These are not samples; they're synthesized algorithms. 5 years ago we might have laughed at such things, but not any more. These have gotten super-sophisticated, and in the case of PianoTeq, you can adjust parameters you may not have known even exist in a piano. Dozens of parameters, literally. The sound is incredible. But does it give you the feel and thrill of that piano sound that your ears crave? That's up to you. Personal preference. Fortunately, there is a demo. The most incredible benefit of using these pianos is that they take up very little memory or hard disk space. They are much easier on the CPU and hard drives than the giant sampled pianos like Ivory.

Group 1: This is my personal preference. There are several contenders in this group. They include several pianos from Sampletekk. Also among the top end is Akoustik Piano from Native Instruments. It's a fine instrument with a fine interface. I own it and have reviewed it for another website. But at the time of that review, I did not have Ivory 1.5. Since the release of Ivory 1.5, I personally think that it is the only contender for First Place. Ivory is the best Virtual Piano in existence, in my opinion, though I have not tried all of Sampletekk's pianos. (I've heard the demos, though) Even the VSL piano doesn't compare. (sounds like a piano in a barrel.. a GREAT piano in an average barrel )

Ivory has more tweakable variables than Akoustik Piano, and possibly more than any other in Group 1. It is through tweaking it that you get the sound you desire. But what you start off with -- the samples themselves -- are certainly among the best piano samples in existence. Furthermore, Ivory has 8 and 10 layer pianos. That means 10 layers of complete samples, recorded over the entire keyboard, plus Unacorda simulation -- or possibly samples, I don't remember (CC#67), plus a working Sostenuto pedal (CC#66). Velocity touch is very adjustable through curves and controls, and there are effects ranging from resonance, reverb, and release, all the way to synthesized effects for pop or experimental music.

Many pianos have lots of controls and variables, but to my ears Ivory has the best sound. Why? Because the guys doing it are among the most experienced piano modelers in the industry, having spent decades developing piano samples for Kurzweil. Ivory is one virtual instrument that I can whole-heartedly recommend without a demo. If you want the best, just get it.

Those are your basic choices. It comes down to how much you want to spend, how sensitive your ears are to piano sounds, what your needs are, and so forth. If you use any of the pianos mentioned above, your music is going to sound better than 95% of actual piano recordings, because the level of recording technology in most piano recordings (think back to the days of Rubinstein, Horowitz, and so forth) simply wasn't as sensitive as it is now. Don't take me wrong; those engineers were the top of the trade. The recordings of Rubinstein are incredibly good for their time. But we can do much better now; if only Arthur and Vladimir were still here! But others are; we've no shortage of talent or technology. My point is simply that our virtual pianos have risen to the level of split-hairs. They are all good, but a few are great, and Ivory is fantastic.

Shooshie

[abinning]

Thank you Shooshie for taking the time to consolidate this 'little' debate of mine - I hope others will find your comments useful too.

It was interesting to read your review of Akoustik piano, and the 'secret delight' you refer to - it's exactly this 'connection' and musical inspiration I was hoping to find in the MachFive2 German Grand, but, for me, it came up short, however, I would agree that it is an excellent 'Group 3' instrument. I think I should be very happy with Ivory 1.5 for my solo piano inspiration, although considering your comments in the article, perhaps I should wait for the next update to Akoustik Piano!

Due to personal circumstances, I haven't played properly for years, and it has been 15 years or so (!) since I sat down at the business end of a Steinway. Now that I feel I'm starting to miss my old friend, and have neither the space nor the financial means to own a fine example (never mind a very bad one), the technology seems to be at a point where I could 'virtually' own my own Steinway (or Bosendorfer, or Bechstein, or Yamaha........)

I'd still like to know just what kind of performance to expect with Ivory on the two Mac systems available to me (MacPro 8-core, 8Gb RAM, 2-drive internal RAID for audio samples & MacBookPro, 3Gb RAM, external FW800 drive).

It will be interesting to keep an eye on Pianoteq, especially considering its modest system requirements. It does sound incredible, and I was initially quite taken by it - perhaps I'll give the latest version another whirl. Also, in my Googling, I came across an 'official' Steinway endorsed sample library from Garritan. Although not yet released, I suspect this might be very interesting, and could prove an essential purchase to feed my MachFive2 in the future!

[Shooshie]

You know, if you want to buy just one virtual piano and know you've got the best, I'd stick with Ivory, not Akoustik Piano. AP is good, but not as good as Ivory. Even in my review I stated that Ivory sounded better, but that it got noisy as the notes built up with the sustain pedal on, or during rapid, dense passages. Version 1.5 fixed the noise issue. Now there's just nothing to complain about in Ivory! (except maybe that it's not issued with every keyboard!)

There are two other concerns for Ivory. One is a fast hard drive. Your Mac Pro tower will handle Ivory without batting a virtual eye. Those Intels are FAST, FAST, FAST! (maybe I should repeat "fast" 8 times in the case of yours?) But where Ivory is most demanding is on the hard drive. Don't attempt to use Ivory for dense, rapid playing unless you've got a 10,000 rpm drive. There is one drive that is especially suited for Ivory, and that's the Western Digital Raptor, which in addition to being 10K rpm is also SATA, which is a very fast interface. You will rarely (or never) see the "slow-disk" light when you're using it.

For your MacBook Pro, you've got another problem. Without the ability to install an SATA drive, you need a fast interface. I'd recommend a Firewire 800 drive. Look for 10,000 rpm with a Firewire 800 interface, unless there happens to be an SATA port on the MacBook Pro. I don't know the best brand for that, but if Seagate makes an external Firewire 800 drive at 10,000 RPM, that would be my choice.

If there is an external SATA port, you can actually assemble a WD Raptor in an SATA-prepared hard drive enclosure. Go check out your local Fry's or other electronic store for hard drive enclosures. I prefer the ones made by Acomdata, which are fanless (quieter). If you can find one with an SATA interface, you can put a Raptor in it. That's just in case your MacBook Pro happens to have an external SATA port. I don't know if they do or not.

Then there is the last, and perhaps most important, consideration: your keyboard. I use a Kurzweil 2600 which has an 88-key Fatar keyboard in it. Fatar makes very good weighted keyboards -- maybe the best in the industry. Others may have suggestions that are as good or better. The keyboard makes a lot of difference. When my virtual pianos are setup as I like, my Fatar makes me feel like I'm playing a Steinway or Yamaha grand.

Ok... that's about all the info I can think of that might help you out at this time. The hard drive is the critical link in a sampled piano. It's got to be able to play all those notes as fast as you do, and only the best ones -- like the WD Raptor -- can do that.

Good luck!

Shooshie

[Spikey Horse]

Another one you could consider is VSL Bösendorfer Imperial

http://vsl.co.at/en-us/211/412/287.vsl

£180 / 55GB

Plenty of audio demos on the VSL site. It may not be as flexible as a '4-pianos-in-1' VI but it is it is stunning to play, not surprisingly ... especially satisfying at both ends of the dynamic range.

[iMAS]

First, let's reduce the playing field to three basic camps that most people would find interesting in one way or another:

1) Top-end sampled virtual pianos

You can add "Quantum Leap Pianos" to this group.
It's scheduled to be shipped at the end of September.

I have huge expectations for this. It seems like it has the
potential to surpass Ivory.

http://www.soundsonline.com/Quantum-Lea ... W-171.html

[tim57var]

I have to agree with Shooshie...well stated. I use Ivory on both my 8-core and macBook Pro. You will need a nice Firewire 800 drive on the MBP, and i use a 7200 Int HD on the 8-core. You'll get great performance.

I tend to use the Yamaha sample the most - it has the brilliance and clarity I prefer. When I need something rounder and more classical, I use the Steinway.

As for controllers, I like the Kurzweil as well - I've gone through 3 or 4 PC88s in the last 10 years or so. Currently I'm using a Nord Stage, and it's taken me a while to get used to it, but it's a really nice keyboard as well. In fact, the Yamaha C7 piano sample in it is pretty nice too.

Note to Magic Dave - no offense on the M52 piano - it's really good!! It just doesn't play as musically as Ivory for my taste. Also, I have a hard time using "good reverb" as a standard for what constitutes a good sample - almost anything sounds great with an expensive reverb on it. Nonetheless, I'm sure I'll be using the M52 piano in a pop/rock production sometime soon - it has a nice "chunky" quality (like Coldplay...?)