Jingles take a lot more work than "songs"?

[mhschmieder]

I've been putting a lot of time into jingles and theme music that will hopefully be used on local CATV programming in the SF Bay ARea soon (keeping my fingers crossed), as well as helping out some web designer friends with audio content.

I am enjoying the work (and getting paid), but what a lot of work it is! It seems to take way longer than recording a pop "song" or even a shorter classical work (or jazz improv).

Even the local indie soundtrack work that I have done took less effort per second of playtime . I make that comparison because theoretically the requirements are similar, in that the music must meet a lot of criteria to match visual elements (and timing, energy, mood, pacing, etc.), and often must be very succint (sometimes just six seconds or less).

As I am relatively new to this, I'm just curious whether it is my inexperience at play, or whether others find this also to be the case, that it takes more work to make a successful jingle than to make a successful song or small-scale composition.

I'm not even counting the time spent with clients talking about their needs, what they plan to do with programming changes later, etc. It's an exciting process for me, just as my minimal involvement in local filmmaking.

I'm making very efficient use of time. It's just that I end up layering 32 or more parts in some cases, with a theme rapidly moving from one orchestral instrument to another, in order to achieve maximum impact and musicality within a very short phrasing.

The creative side does not take me very long as I'm very fast at coming up with ideas and how to effectively leverage a theme into "hints" and tricked-out "quotes" for optional intros and later set pieces.

I guess what I'm really wondering is whether the actual time that it takes to realise my ideas would more likely progress much faster in a notation package than within a DAW. Very soon, I will finally have the opportunity to USE the notation package that I bought last year (Notion) and export via MIDI to DP for actual recording. The MIDI support has been inadequate up to now, so I have used it strictly for notation/printing.

I probably should point out that one of the most time-consuming aspects is creating a well-balanced mix, when no instrument plays for very long. Even looping the audio doesn't help that much. So maybe the best thing is to ask for hints on how to more effectively and quickly mix such projects.

[GWJ]

The world of jingles, ad music generally, is notorious for the client feedback headache. This can't but hinder any smooth or easier path towards completion. Sometimes, rarely, it can help - the client has been known to know how they want their product represented - and even provide good clues! ;)

You can have a situation when recording songs for a release etc. where you have an A+R/marketing person give their opinion on what they expect - in terms of what the label wants to promote. I think this is comparable with ' feedback ' from eg. an ad agency. Though the meeting down the pub afterwards between the band members tends to be more vitriolic! For what it's worth, the band should NEVER heed that type of feedback. Jingle writers et al invariably do not have that option.

The question you pose is in some regards unanswerable. If you love working in a jingle, brief based, environment and are set up for it, then what hard work you do should be rewarding - it sounds like it is to you already and that's great.
From my own point of view I know that to be the case when finishing a song (ie presentable to someone, on a format). Actually, more so when just finishing it with paper, pen and melody before having to record and commit it to a style - but that's another story!

I will say, by way of a loaded comment, that songs by their very nature are special - the jingle, in particular, is not - IMHO - it performs a defined function from the outset. Who knows where a song might take you....

I think we all, regardless of the area of work we are in (and they are not necessarily mutually exclusive) want to mix more effectively and quickly! Automatic mix plug-in anyone?!!

Best

[Dwetmaster]

working in Video Games I find that it's always harder to express something in a few seconds than it is over a whole song. It's been really hard for me to get used to bringing the excitement of winning in 2-4 seconds or the disaopintment of losing within 5 seconds...
I'm glad I got to do this job as I'm a way better composer now than what I used to be...

[mhschmieder]

GWJ, thanks for your philosophical musings. It's good just to hear someone else's perspective on it.

I find the hardest part right now is living with what I have produced, knowing that if it indeed falls into heavy use, that I could be haunted by it for the rest of my life .

With a CD of songs or compositions, you can simply choose not to play it again, but with a jingle, news hour theme, or the like, you are likely to hear it again... and again... and again...

FWIW, I strove hard to AVOID sounding like that godawful theme from the NPR mid-evening program (I get them all confused as to which is which). Maybe I'm wrong, but that trumpet fanfare with string backing has always sounded like a 1990's keyboard workstation to me vs. a real orchestra.

I've only scratched the surface of VSL so far, but was happy when I learned how to make proper use of the portamento samples this weekend. I'm still stuck with Patch Mode for now as my desktop is too small to set up a keyboard controller to input CC's efficiently (I'll try soon in MIDI View in DP to see if I can use that spline-drawing feature to start taking advantage of VSL's sample-switching in Matrix Mode instead). But as I said, most of my time was spent not in the actual tracking but in the mixing.

[GWJ]

I find the hardest part right now is living with what I have produced, knowing that if it indeed falls into heavy use, that I could be haunted by it for the rest of my life :-)

Just get paid for it for the rest of your life - you'll be fine. :)

[GWJ]

working in Video Games I find that it's always harder to express something in a few seconds than it is over a whole song.

Maybe because it's not possible to express anything too meaningful in a few seconds. There's a reason songs are generally 3-4mins long.
In some respects I can see your difficulty, but because you are truly limited with time, then the lack of expanse for you to deal with, and therefore options, should make things easier, no?

All I know is when I go to a Chinese restaurant, I am lost in choices!

Set meal for two!!

[FMiguelez]

Maybe because it's not possible to express anything too meaningful in a few seconds. There's a reason songs are generally 3-4mins long.

This is one of the reasons why it takes a bit longer. You have very little time to "tell a story" (if it's tha case). Client tastes vary wildy, but more often than not I can always feel the pressure. What is the hardest (for me) and one of the most important things is to understand exactly what they want/expect. Since they are almost always music-iliterate, their terms range from odd to plain ridiculous.
Understanding what they mean is an art on its own. I'd say once you have that nailed, it's all a walk in the park.

One thing I particularly don't enjoy too much is doing revisions, especially when they change their minds about the pre-approved music concept. They can do this, of course, but it's not much fun when they suddenly want something new out of the blue (unless they pay for this, that is)

One thing I really like about doing Jingles is that they are very well payed, and usually i have to do them in a day's notice. Most often all-nighters. But the good thing is that you MUST finish them fast, with great quality. This frees up your time for the next project. I'd rather have a very tight deadline, so I am obligued to finish quickly, than a very relaxed one, so i can finish one project and move quickly to the next.

I think I work a bit better under pressure, since discipline is not one of my strenghts. Procastination, anyone?

Jinlges are very fun! They're always different, and force you to try new things and stlyles that otherwise would've remained unexplored.

Rock on, fellow jinglers

[Frodo]

The world of jingles, ad music generally, is notorious for the client feedback headache....

Maybe because it's not possible to express anything too meaningful in a few seconds....

Client tastes vary wildy...

"Client taste"-- the oximoron of the century!

Wholly agreed on all counts-- less time to accomplish what needs to be done for reasons which are often not musically motivated along with an endless stream of decisions being made by people who either:

1. know more about advertising than you do
2. know less about music than you do
3. some combination of 1 and 2.

But the customer is always "right", and under the right circumstances it can pay off significantly.

[FMiguelez]

The world of jingles, ad music generally, is notorious for the client feedback headache....

Maybe because it's not possible to express anything too meaningful in a few seconds....

Client tastes vary wildy...

"Client taste"-- the oximoron of the century!

Wholly agreed on all counts-- less time to accomplish what needs to be done for reasons which are often not musically motivated along with an endless stream of decisions being made by people who either:

1. know more about advertising than you do
2. know less about music than you do
3. some combination of 1 and 2.

But the customer is always "right", and under the right circumstances it can pay off significantly.

LOL! Exactly. And often, they don't even agree among themselves. It's funny how sometimes even THE CLIENTS don't understand eachother, or mislead eachother. Throw the creatives in the mix, and well, interesting things happen.
The other day, I was hired to do a jingle for this big account. I got briefed, bla, blah, blah. I turn in the music and the creative director HATES it. Production had sent the music to the client. Turns out, they LOVED it.
Go figure...

Hey, at least it wasn't the other way around

Oh, and, as usual, if after sending the music you get a phone call from the agency, you're in trouble. If you don't hear back from them for a few days, that means everything's great. Well, unless, of course, that the following phone call is a "congratulatory" call, if they are just blown away. Not extremely usual, but very nice when that happens.

Just curious about usual procedures in the USA. Do you guys get your gigs more often from ad agencies, or from production houses? Whom do you deal most often with (producers, directors, creatives)?
How often do you compete against other composers, or against whole music production houses?
Are competitions more like the norm, or do you just get hired?
What's a typical turn in time for the music. I know it's always different, but what is more typical, in your particular experience?

I'm just curious to see the differences in working protocols between the US and Mexican advertising business.

Cheers

[jlaudon]

I've found that mixing for jingles is challenging because of the voice overs.

What has worked best for me (and the producers) is to give them a mix of the music, another mix of the sound effects, and a mix of the VO - then it's in their hands (something like Soundtrack Pro is multi-track anyways). Normally they might not have to tweak anything (just set to unity gain) but just in case, it's quicker and safer (since they know what they want apparently).

Another 'trick' I've done is to do 2-3 simple versions of a jingle first(different musical styles), and then the client always chooses one (as opposed to writing one jingle, then they tell you it's not what they are looking for, but they can't actually describe what they want clearly). The client seems to like this, as they think you are really working hard for them but it actually saves time for me.

[FMiguelez]

Another 'trick' I've done is to do 2-3 simple versions of a jingle first(different musical styles), and then the client always chooses one (as opposed to writing one jingle, then they tell you it's not what they are looking for, but they can't actually describe what they want clearly). The client seems to like this, as they think you are really working hard for them but it actually saves time for me.

That's a good lick!!

I remember long ago reading some kind of business book that it stated that, usually, when a client is presented with more than one option, they tend to choose one or the other, instead of just saying no when presented with a single option.

[mhschmieder]

Well, it can work both ways, so you need to "read" your client to guess whether it helps or hurts.

Some clients want clear decisiveness on the part of the composer, and see multiple targets/choices as a lack of focus or talent.

Others see it as you stated it, as true dedication and working extra hard to meet the client's needs.

I've had it happen both ways, but am getting better at guessing which type of client I am dealing with .

[FMiguelez]

I've had it happen both ways, but am getting better at guessing which type of client I am dealing with .

Yup. Not only do we have to be: composers, orchestrators, engineers, producers, accountants, etc. Also, as you suggest, we need to be psychologists, or better yet, mind readers

But it's fun, ain't it?