hi all,
I am really interested in improving my monitoring situation. While semi-adequate, the main outs on my 828mk2 just don't seem to cut it for me anymore. I'd like a more flexible and better sounding monitoring system. It seems like it would make sense to buy something with a higher quality D/A section. There are tons of options out there, and so I am a bit overwhelmed.
My room is what it is, rectangular for the most part, with a couple of extra angles thrown in. I've treated it a bit with traps and some panels, but dont want to spend too much more on it since I rent, and don't always know how long I am going to be in any one place.
I've considered the Benchmark DAC1 and the Lavry AD10, both of which look pretty good. I've also heard good things about the Apogee MiniDAC... All of these are basically the same price, about a grand. Then there is the central station, which has more bells and whistles than any of these units, AND costs considerably less...but i have always been, and i think it's because i saved up and bought a BlueTube Pre when I was 17 (and hated it, jeez im so glad i got rid of that thing) a little leery of Presonus products in general.
Anyone have an opinion on how CS stacks up with the more boutiquey stuff?
Another thing i could look into is a unit like the UA2192...which does exceptional A/D as well as D/A, so i'd be killing a two birds with one rack space (ughh...) and I really wouldn't mind two super nice channels of conversion (i hardly track more than 2 channels @ a time) Even if i do 4-6 channels for drums, i can always use the better converters on overheads, and maybe get the BLA mod on my 828. But, obviously UA2192=a lot more dough...Rosetta 200 much cheaper....
too many options...I'd like to get something that will last a while, esp. since it is a digital device...
Thinking about getting a D/A (Now More about Room Treatment)
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Thinking about getting a D/A (Now More about Room Treatment)
Last edited by OldTimey on Mon Apr 23, 2007 10:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
A mastering engineer I go to swears by the Benchmark stuff. His system sounds awesome. I have an Apogee Rosetta 800 myself that I use for both A/D and D/A and I'm very happy with it. I can hear quite a difference between the Apogee unit and my MOTU 828. I think anything in that class will be an improvement for you. But as Brad is implying with his questions, make sure it is indeed the weak link in your chain.
Phil
Phil
DP 11.34. 2020 M1 Mac Mini [9,1] (16 Gig RAM), Mac Pro 3GHz 8 core [6,1] (16 Gig RAM), OS 15.3/11.6.2, Lynx Aurora (n) 8tb, MOTU 8pre-es, MOTU M6, MOTU 828, Apogee Rosetta 800, UAD-2 Satellite, a truckload of outboard gear and plug-ins, and a partridge in a pear tree.
1) I have dynaudio bm5a monitors.BradLyons wrote:Hmmmm before you go there, a few questions please:
1) What monitors do you have?
2) How big is your room?
3) What aren't the converters cutting it for you any more?
2) My room is smallish, eight foot ceilings, 9ft wide by 13 in long. My workspace is at the end of one of the long ends, so as to minimize initial reflections as much as possible. The reflection points on either side wall are treated with auralex foam, and some diy acoustic panels.
3) I guess maybe it's not so much my coverters aren't cutting it, but perhaps:
A) I can't stand the little volume knob on the 828mk2 anymore, it is rackmounted, off to the left of my listening position, and when i grab for it i often end up turning one of the other 10 exactly the same style knobs. I love the 828 as far as I/O and versatility go, just not as a monitor controller.
B) I am a little intrigued by better converters on the D/A side because in my room it is tough to mix bass freqs, and I could use all the help i can get on the imaging side. (I may just need a sub, i dunno) I also like the idea of investing in a good piece...i try to stay away from "band-aid" solutions to my needs...you know plan for the future a little bit and get something versatile and long lasting.
I usually pour my money into good analog stuff and mics, but it's becoming clearer and clearer that if i am going to work ITB, i need some digital stuff and more software etc. With software it is tough to really "invest" but with the on the digital outboard side i'd like to stay as future proof as possible.
I imagine that someday ill move away from the 828 as an I/O device (the same way i moved away from a lesser interface 3 years ago) and i just want to start thinking about that and pickup gear that will not be a "weak link" if you will in my next signal chain.
thanks for your input Brad!
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BradLyons
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- Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 10:01 pm
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Thanks for your detailed response, that does give me enough info to look into your situation. Okay, you have good monitors and while the 828mkII is an excellent interface, there certainly are better converters that do provide a fuller and tighter bandwidth, better resolution on the stereo imaging, etc. One thing I want to address first is your concern on "lack of bass". IS YOUR ROOM TREATED and if so, how?
The #1 issue people complain of lack of bass isn't because their speakers aren't producing it, but their room is taking it away. It has to do with standing waves and well, physics. High frequencies bounce around, you can hear the echos and issues but with low frequencies--the waveforms are so long and so deep that they don't bounce around. Instead, the build up along a front and rear wall, ceilings, corners etc and phase cancel. The more that is there, the more the buildup and more problems occur. So you get the mix to sound good in the studio, but in your car it's significantly heavy in the bass.
By putting bass traps in the corners, heavy absorption and diffusion on the rear wall with (sometimes) diffusion on the ceiling and the right combination of absorption and diffusion on a front-wall you can SIGNIFICANTLY increase the accuracy within your room. If your room isn't acoustically treated, it doesn't matter how good your monitors or converters are--it will trick and fool you. You have the right sized monitors for your room and they are accurate in the bottom-end, but certainly you don't get that "thud" with them. Adding a good quality subwoofer will certainly help you mixing the bottom end if you also want that big "thud" sound. I have 5" woofers in my ADAM S1A's, and use their 10" sub and oh yeah--it makes a difference. But my room is also treated.
Okay, to the converter.....YES, you will notice an improvement in what you hear. As just a D/A converter, I'm very much an Apogee MiniDAC fan personally--especially with the big price drop!!! You'll notice more open highs, cleaner mids and a tighter bass response. This doesn't mean you'll get more bass per-say, because again you're only going to hear what your monitors can do and what your room will allow. By going with a D/A converter such as this--it will at least allow the gear you have to work to their ultimate response.
The #1 issue people complain of lack of bass isn't because their speakers aren't producing it, but their room is taking it away. It has to do with standing waves and well, physics. High frequencies bounce around, you can hear the echos and issues but with low frequencies--the waveforms are so long and so deep that they don't bounce around. Instead, the build up along a front and rear wall, ceilings, corners etc and phase cancel. The more that is there, the more the buildup and more problems occur. So you get the mix to sound good in the studio, but in your car it's significantly heavy in the bass.
By putting bass traps in the corners, heavy absorption and diffusion on the rear wall with (sometimes) diffusion on the ceiling and the right combination of absorption and diffusion on a front-wall you can SIGNIFICANTLY increase the accuracy within your room. If your room isn't acoustically treated, it doesn't matter how good your monitors or converters are--it will trick and fool you. You have the right sized monitors for your room and they are accurate in the bottom-end, but certainly you don't get that "thud" with them. Adding a good quality subwoofer will certainly help you mixing the bottom end if you also want that big "thud" sound. I have 5" woofers in my ADAM S1A's, and use their 10" sub and oh yeah--it makes a difference. But my room is also treated.
Okay, to the converter.....YES, you will notice an improvement in what you hear. As just a D/A converter, I'm very much an Apogee MiniDAC fan personally--especially with the big price drop!!! You'll notice more open highs, cleaner mids and a tighter bass response. This doesn't mean you'll get more bass per-say, because again you're only going to hear what your monitors can do and what your room will allow. By going with a D/A converter such as this--it will at least allow the gear you have to work to their ultimate response.
Thank you,
Brad Lyons
db AUDIO & VIDEO
-Systems Advisor, CTS
Brad Lyons
db AUDIO & VIDEO
-Systems Advisor, CTS
Brad thanks again.
So considering the physics, doing some simple calculations on a 2.7432x3.9624x2.4672 rm (in meters), (wavelengthxfreq=speed no?)
i should get standing waves around (and therefore buildup etc) @:
(2.7432m) / (1/344 m/sec) = 125Hz
(3.9624m) / (1/344 m/sec) = 86.8Hz
(2.4672m) / (1/344 m/sec) = 139.4Hz
and multiples of.
As it turns out these are always problem frequencies for me, I usually have a pretty hard time getting the bass right, it takes a lot of time going back and forth between different systems. I've trained my ear by listening to commercial recordings over my system, (which always sound bass heavy in my room) and mixing like that. But it's annoying, because in some situations in my room, I have to mix, say a kick drum, to the point where I can't hear it at all in the mix for it to sound good in my car etc.
Brad, what kind of treatment do you recommend to take care of these frequencies? I have to be mindful that since the room is pretty small I don't really want too many big things eating up square footage. \
I'll look into the MiniDAC. thanks again!
So considering the physics, doing some simple calculations on a 2.7432x3.9624x2.4672 rm (in meters), (wavelengthxfreq=speed no?)
i should get standing waves around (and therefore buildup etc) @:
(2.7432m) / (1/344 m/sec) = 125Hz
(3.9624m) / (1/344 m/sec) = 86.8Hz
(2.4672m) / (1/344 m/sec) = 139.4Hz
and multiples of.
As it turns out these are always problem frequencies for me, I usually have a pretty hard time getting the bass right, it takes a lot of time going back and forth between different systems. I've trained my ear by listening to commercial recordings over my system, (which always sound bass heavy in my room) and mixing like that. But it's annoying, because in some situations in my room, I have to mix, say a kick drum, to the point where I can't hear it at all in the mix for it to sound good in my car etc.
Brad, what kind of treatment do you recommend to take care of these frequencies? I have to be mindful that since the room is pretty small I don't really want too many big things eating up square footage. \
I'll look into the MiniDAC. thanks again!
As much as I hate Radio Shack, I must admit that one of the items I have and use is their sound level meter. I wouldn't trust it for calibration purposes, but for spotting problem frequencies it's a simple matter of playing a slow sweep and watching the meter. Peaks and dips can be spotted in a few seconds and it's easy to move it to different spots in the room. Later when you need to fine tune things you can do the spectrum analyzer thing or something software based.
If you do get some treatment, don't put it where you think it will do the most good and forget it. Instead use that as a starting point and experiment, experiment, experiment. When I built my studio, I experimented for two days before I got it sounding good. I still have a little 2 db "bump" at 147 Hz that I'm going to work on this summer. At one point in the room, there are two Auralex lenrd (or somethin'like that) traps back-to-back forming (180 degrees) placed flat against the wall about 14 inches from the corner. This is not at all how these were designed to be used, but move them 2 inches either way and it changes the whole sound of the room. Nothing else I've tried sounds as good. So there they sit!
Good luck and take your time to get it right.
Remember, an inch can make a difference. Wait, I didn't say that.
Phil
If you do get some treatment, don't put it where you think it will do the most good and forget it. Instead use that as a starting point and experiment, experiment, experiment. When I built my studio, I experimented for two days before I got it sounding good. I still have a little 2 db "bump" at 147 Hz that I'm going to work on this summer. At one point in the room, there are two Auralex lenrd (or somethin'like that) traps back-to-back forming (180 degrees) placed flat against the wall about 14 inches from the corner. This is not at all how these were designed to be used, but move them 2 inches either way and it changes the whole sound of the room. Nothing else I've tried sounds as good. So there they sit!
Good luck and take your time to get it right.
Remember, an inch can make a difference. Wait, I didn't say that.
Phil
DP 11.34. 2020 M1 Mac Mini [9,1] (16 Gig RAM), Mac Pro 3GHz 8 core [6,1] (16 Gig RAM), OS 15.3/11.6.2, Lynx Aurora (n) 8tb, MOTU 8pre-es, MOTU M6, MOTU 828, Apogee Rosetta 800, UAD-2 Satellite, a truckload of outboard gear and plug-ins, and a partridge in a pear tree.
Phil, i actually have a Radioshack SPL meter that I got a year ago when I was calibrating my monitors to the Katz system. It's a pretty nifty device, I also use it @ rehearsal to see how loud a band gets, and to use the appropriate hearing protection...anyway....Phil O wrote:As much as I hate Radio Shack, I must admit that one of the items I have and use is their sound level meter. I wouldn't trust it for calibration purposes, but for spotting problem frequencies it's a simple matter of playing a slow sweep and watching the meter. Peaks and dips can be spotted in a few seconds and it's easy to move it to different spots in the room. Later when you need to fine tune things you can do the spectrum analyzer thing or something software based.
what software do you use create sine wave sweeps? Or do you use a harware oscillator?
-
BradLyons
- Posts: 2635
- Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 10:01 pm
- Primary DAW OS: Windows
- Location: Atlanta, GA
- Contact:
Oldtimey,
I'd start first by putting in BASS TRAPS in the corners, Absorption and Difussion on the back wall and then do some basic treatment from there. To walk you through this, I'm going to walk you through my room. Here is the back right corner before treatment:
Here is that same view after putting up an AURALEX LENRD BASS TRAP in the corner. In this particular corner, I only have one of these because of a trap-door below. Normally, you'd place two per corner of your room:
What you also see there in the center of the wall is a product called TRU TRAPS GENESIS which I truly feel is MAGIC FAIRY DUST for the home studio. What comes with that are (4) HEAVY absorption foam panels designed for low frequency absorption, each panel is 2ft x 4ft. I placed a full panel in the center of my rear wall and then applied (2) of the included four diffusion panels (the red things) on top. I cut up another 2ft x 4ft foam panel and placed one half on each side slightly up. This is provided bass absorption in the rear wall while also breaking up the excess energy back into the room. On the angled ceiling, I mounted 1ft x 1ft, 2" thick Auralex DST panels for spot absorption of high frequency. Over where the door is also several panels of these as that was causing phase before hand. Along the corner of the wall and slanted ceiling is a 3" trim that really is there for looks more than anything else.
Here is the other side of the back wall:
Notice the ceiling in the center, I'm using the other (2) of the four diffusion panels on spacers. This is to help break up energy above me and move it around the room. What I don't have a picture of is the closet area on the right side of the room, I took the doors off of this area which created a cavity for phase. I placed one of the remaining of two heavy foam panels from the TruTraps kit inside the back of the closet and another on the front wall of the closet. The result is a DEAD TIGHT room that has little problem. The reason this was more of an issue for me is because of the front wall....notice how the whole wall is covered with foam. I did this for the look knowing it would also create a problem elsewhere, the key was to find that elsewhere (which was the closet).
EVERY ROOM IS DIFFERENT, but there are constants too.....
1) START WITH BASS TRAPS IN THE CORNERS
2) REAR WALL ABSORPTION & DIFFUSION
3) SPOT TREATMENT
From there, it depends on what's going on in the room. Understand, your monitor placement is also key.
I'd start first by putting in BASS TRAPS in the corners, Absorption and Difussion on the back wall and then do some basic treatment from there. To walk you through this, I'm going to walk you through my room. Here is the back right corner before treatment:
Here is that same view after putting up an AURALEX LENRD BASS TRAP in the corner. In this particular corner, I only have one of these because of a trap-door below. Normally, you'd place two per corner of your room:
What you also see there in the center of the wall is a product called TRU TRAPS GENESIS which I truly feel is MAGIC FAIRY DUST for the home studio. What comes with that are (4) HEAVY absorption foam panels designed for low frequency absorption, each panel is 2ft x 4ft. I placed a full panel in the center of my rear wall and then applied (2) of the included four diffusion panels (the red things) on top. I cut up another 2ft x 4ft foam panel and placed one half on each side slightly up. This is provided bass absorption in the rear wall while also breaking up the excess energy back into the room. On the angled ceiling, I mounted 1ft x 1ft, 2" thick Auralex DST panels for spot absorption of high frequency. Over where the door is also several panels of these as that was causing phase before hand. Along the corner of the wall and slanted ceiling is a 3" trim that really is there for looks more than anything else.
Here is the other side of the back wall:
Notice the ceiling in the center, I'm using the other (2) of the four diffusion panels on spacers. This is to help break up energy above me and move it around the room. What I don't have a picture of is the closet area on the right side of the room, I took the doors off of this area which created a cavity for phase. I placed one of the remaining of two heavy foam panels from the TruTraps kit inside the back of the closet and another on the front wall of the closet. The result is a DEAD TIGHT room that has little problem. The reason this was more of an issue for me is because of the front wall....notice how the whole wall is covered with foam. I did this for the look knowing it would also create a problem elsewhere, the key was to find that elsewhere (which was the closet).
EVERY ROOM IS DIFFERENT, but there are constants too.....
1) START WITH BASS TRAPS IN THE CORNERS
2) REAR WALL ABSORPTION & DIFFUSION
3) SPOT TREATMENT
From there, it depends on what's going on in the room. Understand, your monitor placement is also key.
Thank you,
Brad Lyons
db AUDIO & VIDEO
-Systems Advisor, CTS
Brad Lyons
db AUDIO & VIDEO
-Systems Advisor, CTS
BradLyons wrote:Oh I'm not saying to do that, especially if it's on the rear wall. If you open up a closet, you open up the potential for more problems. Can you take and post pictures of the room?
don't have any pictures at the moment, but i do have a little diagram I made in Paint a few months ago:
I have the north and south walls spot treated with 2'' foam panels. Flutter echos have never been a problem really, i definitely think i need some better bass traps. It's a little embarrassing at times, I'll have someone over to check out a mix, and while playing back, a bass note will just jump out and really resonate, drowning out the rest of the arrangement.
-
BradLyons
- Posts: 2635
- Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 10:01 pm
- Primary DAW OS: Windows
- Location: Atlanta, GA
- Contact:
IMHO, I'd seriously recommend to start here:
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/LENRDBass/
and preferably add this:
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/TruTrapsGKit/
The combination of this in MOST ROOMS will immediately have an impact on your mixing. Like I said, you have good monitors--but your room is hurting what they can do. Now, treating your room won't make it perfect and you still may need to put an EQ on the output channel-----but it will be much better and I assure you, you'll hear more bass by having a better controlled room.
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/LENRDBass/
and preferably add this:
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/TruTrapsGKit/
The combination of this in MOST ROOMS will immediately have an impact on your mixing. Like I said, you have good monitors--but your room is hurting what they can do. Now, treating your room won't make it perfect and you still may need to put an EQ on the output channel-----but it will be much better and I assure you, you'll hear more bass by having a better controlled room.
Thank you,
Brad Lyons
db AUDIO & VIDEO
-Systems Advisor, CTS
Brad Lyons
db AUDIO & VIDEO
-Systems Advisor, CTS
MakeATestTone is a nifty piece of software that I use from time to time. I also have an audio frequency sweep oscillator.OldTimey wrote:...what software do you use create sine wave sweeps? Or do you use a harware oscillator?
http://www.audioease.com/Pages/MATT/MakeATestTone.html
30 bucks
Phil
DP 11.34. 2020 M1 Mac Mini [9,1] (16 Gig RAM), Mac Pro 3GHz 8 core [6,1] (16 Gig RAM), OS 15.3/11.6.2, Lynx Aurora (n) 8tb, MOTU 8pre-es, MOTU M6, MOTU 828, Apogee Rosetta 800, UAD-2 Satellite, a truckload of outboard gear and plug-ins, and a partridge in a pear tree.
so i ran a sine sweep test in my room...
the results were scary. I always knew that bass freqs were the hardest to keep honest, but this is ridiculous. Average response of the wave was about 80dB, but peaks measured upwards of 90dB and troughs as low as 70dB. there is some serious comb filtering between 200Hz and 300 Hz. Quite an eye opening experience to be totally honest. Ive taught myself backwards to mix in my room, but now it is very clear i need to treat it with bass absorption and go from there. i dropped the values of the freq response into an excel spreadsheet, below is a jpeg of the results graphed out. Atter I get some bass treatment, I will redo the test and post results here if anyone is interested.
thanks...
the results were scary. I always knew that bass freqs were the hardest to keep honest, but this is ridiculous. Average response of the wave was about 80dB, but peaks measured upwards of 90dB and troughs as low as 70dB. there is some serious comb filtering between 200Hz and 300 Hz. Quite an eye opening experience to be totally honest. Ive taught myself backwards to mix in my room, but now it is very clear i need to treat it with bass absorption and go from there. i dropped the values of the freq response into an excel spreadsheet, below is a jpeg of the results graphed out. Atter I get some bass treatment, I will redo the test and post results here if anyone is interested.
thanks...