4 ram slot G5's incompatible with DP?

jmmusic · Post by **jmmusic** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 4:05 am

Please excuse me. This is a long and whining rant. But I'm just stupid pissed at my setup. Even more pissed at myself for having it in my life for so long. Read on if you want, and please make suggestions.

I've had this Dual G5 (model M9747ALL/A) since November of 2005. I purchased the computer new to run DP4.5 (upgrading from DP3). Coming from a 466GHz "Digital Audio" model G4, I was expecting a HUGE amount of love from this new set-up.

Also, I purchased an RME HDSP9652 (which I own three more of, installed on different satellite PCs) for use as my audio card. I re-purposed a MIDI Express XT USB and UAD-1 from my old DP3 G4 for the this new set-up.

Brand new out of the box, with only DP4 installed (before putting in the cards and connecting the MIDI box)... I noticed random spiking in the DP processing meter. Thought it odd, but didn't think too much of it as I wasn't doing anything more than fiddling blindly with the new machine in my office before going to the studio to load it up and commission the setup.

Once everything was setup and I started trying to actually work on the computer, it became apparent that the issue was real... and really ridiculous. We're talking a single stereo audio track with no plug-ins clipping the DP process meter causing the application to halt and ask me to disable audio. What? Tried clean installs. Different versions of Tiger. Moved up to 4.52, then 4.61. Then 4.61 with 10.4.3, then.... you get the idea. Called and e-mailed MOTU. The normal: buffer settings, isight plug-in, work priority, repair permissions, trash pref, etc., etc. Basically, blew it off as if I just needed to tweak my setup. "Buy more memory and increase your buffer setting." Seemed fair, so I believed them then. (know better now) Well, 4GB of memory and 1024 buffer later (which, btw, is pretty useless for realtime composing)...

I ignored the "bug" and moved forward, work necessitating the setup to "work" for me. But even with the warning turned off, the clipping would halt my computer. And eventually something else appeared: current files not being able to open without crashing DP. MOTU tech support said that my files were getting corrupted. Wow. Good call there, nits. They had me "load" files into new projects and save. That worked to open them... Great... only to spike, halt the computer, and eventually get corrupted again.

Defeated, I would just expect and accept crazy processor hits and files getting corrupted as normal. Fun, little bundles of joy that would bless me at the most unexpected times, if you will.

The final straw. I was tracking dialogue. Two mono audio tracks. Lo and behold, DP spikes and asks me to disable audio. Seriously, I can't track two mono audio channels with NO plug-ins at a super-reasonable buffer setting of 256? My old 466GHz G4 literally ran circles 100+ fold over this setup! So for now, with deadlines looming, after a year of owning this "upgrade," I'm using my old G4 again... devil you know, and all.

OK. So the real question (thanks if you stuck around long enough, and I can't believe I'm even going to suggest this): do you unicornationers think that a bump to DP5 will bring any semblance of usability to this rig? OR, is this model G5 the problem and is just an absolute lemon with regards to motu software. In all honesty, I'm a composer not a computer guy. This rig is literally the pits... and I've had my share of them. I've been using MOTU since '92-93. I swear if this software ran even close to as well as Performer 5 on my Performa 636CD I'd be ecstatic.

But if I can't get something to give already I may just jump to Nuendo on a PC and ditch Motu & Apple, 'cause I ain't going to Logic. I'd love to stay with MOTU. Ideas, suggestions, nuggets of wisdom, and fun facts are surely welcome.

Best,

John

emulatorloo · Post by **emulatorloo** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 4:39 am

Right off the bat I can tell you that I have used DP 5.11 on a dual g5 and it is considerable more powerful than my dual G4 1.33. Many more VIs more plug-ins, etc.

What you are describing is not typical. Something is wrong somewhere either with your hardware or software installation. But buying a PC and Nuendo seems like an extreme response to a problem that can probably be fixed with a little troubleshooting.

I know for instance that UA has some recommendations about which g5 machines will work well with the UAD-1. There is apparently difficulty with ones that use the AMD-8131 PCI-X controller. There are some other recs too I think, even if you are dont have a motherboard w that AMD controller -- more info here:

http://www.uaudio.com/support/software/UAD/tips/G5.html

There may be something similar with your RME card -- for example the M-audio Delta PCI audio card I have in my G4 will not function properly in certain models of G5 -- pops clicks CPU spikes etc. This is documented on the M-Audio site --
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Here are some easy things you can try:

Have you reset your PRAM lately? Sometimes that will clear up problems:

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=2238

Another thing that comes to mind is resetting your motherboard. I was having all kinds of CPU spiking problems w DP 4.5 on my G4. I did a motherboard reset, and what do you know!!! -- the problems all went away. For G5's that procedure is described here:

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=300341

Do you have the latest drivers for your RME and UAD and MIDI interface?

Do the same things happen if you remove your RME, UAD and MIDI interface and just use built in audio? Do you have any other third party USB or Firewire peripherals? Same results if you remove them? Third party RAM?

What if you remove your third-party plug-ins (or at the very least make sure you are running the lastest version of commercial ones and remove the freeware shareware ones)

Did your G5 come with a disk that can test the processor ram and hard drive? If so what results do you get?

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If it was me and those simple fixes didn't work, I would remove all third party boards and interfaces and ram, I would back up my harddrive and reformat it. (or if you have one, format an external firewire drive) Then I would do a fresh install of Mac OS X, following the guidelines of an article called "tracking the big cats" which I will link to. Then I would make sure I had the lastest firmware updates from Apple. Then I would install dp 5.11 and no other third party plug-ins. I would see how that worked. If it was OK I would add in my third party stuff, bit by bit and test it.

http://emusician.com/gencomput/emusic_t ... _big_cats/

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Good luck and keep us posted.

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Phil Jeffers · Post by **Phil Jeffers** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 4:59 am

Thanks for those great links emulatorloo. Got any more!?

Phil Jeffers · Post by **Phil Jeffers** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 6:58 am

P.S. emus make the most amazing sound with their diaphragms or something... have you ever heard one?

emulatorloo · Post by **emulatorloo** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 8:20 am

Phil Jeffers wrote:P.S. emus make the most amazing sound with their diaphragms or something... have you ever heard one?

Yes! The first emus I ever saw were at the Minnesota State Fair in 1997. I couldn't believe how graceful they were and how friendly they seemed.

A few years ago there was a guy just down the semi-rural road from me in Iowa who had a couple emus. They were in a big pen near the road and I used to walk thru that neighborhood almost everyday to go to a nearby park. Sadly they moved away.

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ba_hill · Post by **ba_hill** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 8:49 am

Hi John,

If you haven't checked it already take a look at System Preferences->Energy Saver->Options and make sure that Processor Performance is set to Highest.

Brian

jmmusic wrote:Please excuse me. This is a long and whining rant. But I'm just stupid pissed at my setup. Even more pissed at myself for having it in my life for so long. Read on if you want, and please make suggestions.

I've had this Dual G5 (model M9747ALL/A) since November of 2005. I purchased the computer new to run DP4.5 (upgrading from DP3). Coming from a 466GHz "Digital Audio" model G4, I was expecting a HUGE amount of love from this new set-up.
John

jmmusic · Post by **jmmusic** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 9:45 am

Thanks, all, for the input. Emulatorloo, thanks for your detailed input. Good stuff. Though, "can probably be fixed with a little troubleshooting" is pretty funny, as I wrote the abridged version of my escapades in my initial post.

Without going through the list you made point by point, I can say that I have tried everything you have suggested, including wiping the entire system clean 2 or 3 times. Again, before I ever installed any additional content, and I do mean ANYTHING, other than DP, I noticed this.

Honestly, this is about as bare bones of a dedicated DP machine as there exists. Its sole purpose is running DP. Literally, the only 3 programs ever installed were DP, Reason, and CDXtract. Aside from that, I eventually put a few of my East West VIs on this machine to test out if they would work as I had initially hoped. That's it. I never re-purchased any of my 3rd Party plug-ins that I had been using on my old G4 because I could never get this machine to work with any sort of stability.

I read that EM article easily a year ago... or more...! This model Apple, or at least this specific machine, has to be lemon.

Anybody have this exact model Apple?

Thanks all.

John

jmmusic · Post by **jmmusic** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 9:47 am

ba_hill wrote:Hi John,

If you haven't checked it already take a look at System Preferences->Energy Saver->Options and make sure that Processor Performance is set to Highest.

Brian

Thanks, Brian. Way past that point, though.

Best.

emulatorloo · Post by **emulatorloo** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 11:32 am

jmmusic wrote: This model Apple, or at least this specific machine, has to be lemon.

Sorry if my stuff was redundant.

It could indeed be a lemon.

Even it that is the case, switching to a PC/Nuendo might not be your best option. I find using my PC's for music etc to be kind of a chore, and they definately aren't lemons, LOL -- they are just running a lemon of an OS . . . . just my very humble opinion

Do keep us posted!

jmmusic · Post by **jmmusic** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 12:27 pm

No apology necessary; I do appreciate the thoughtful advice.

Yeah, I most certainly want to keep using DP and Apple. It's what I really know and love, seeing me through many scores and projects.

I just feel like I've been a beta tester on a new machine and application that have since moved on... and I never received a resolution. MOTU said there must be something wrong with the computer. Apple said the hardware was fine; it must be software related. And I'm stuck with no more than I started with.

Reason can absolutely smoke on this computer, which always made me think that there really had to be some sort of conflict with DP and this, specific model... or the G5, in general. This computer feels like the bees knees with anything but DP... it just has me scratching my head.

The last thing I feel like doing right now is giving any more money to Apple for another machine. A buck ninety-five to MOTU is no biggie, but I want that software to be useable, rather than a hope and a prayer. Otherwise, it's wasted money at this point.

Anybody with a G5 Dual 2.0 GHz, 4 RAM slot machine (M9747ALL/A) have any advice? Anything?

Thanks.

John

jmmusic · Post by **jmmusic** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 12:30 pm

emulatorloo wrote:I find using my PC's for music etc to be kind of a chore, and they definately aren't lemons, LOL -- they are just running a lemon of an OS . . . . just my very humble opinion

Yeah, I know. I prefer to use them only as glorified hardware samplers, myself.

Best.

oldguitars · Post by **oldguitars** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 1:47 pm

um, DP 4.61? that is what i use....

oldguitars · Post by **oldguitars** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 1:48 pm

oops...you have already tried.

emulatorloo · Post by **emulatorloo** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 3:38 pm

jmmusic wrote:Anybody with a G5 Dual 2.0 GHz, 4 RAM slot machine (M9747ALL/A)

Hey John now that I think about it, that is the model that I got to use DP 5.11 on for a couple days. This one?:

http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/p ... p_pci.html

4 Ram Slots PCI slots (not PCI-X)?

My experiences with that machine were great. So much so that I think that I will eventually "inherit" it and be real happy w it as an upgrade from my G4. Much faster more capable than my dual G4 1.33. Granted my sequences are pretty simple. But it certainly was playing back multiple audiotracks and VI's and an instance or so of a Wizooverb convolution reverb.

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However this is the machine that is "incompatible" with M-audio Delta cards. . .which I don't quite get. Other manufacturers have not said this. In fact, I believe UA says this machine is the prefered one for UAD-1. but FWIW here is what M-audio says:

Apple Dual 1.8 / 2.0 G5 PCI incompatible with Delta Series PCI cards
http://www.m-audio.com/index.php?do=sup ... 17b1a4cb48

Furthermore, two specific PCI-equipped Apple G5 models have been found to be incompatible with some PCI audio interfaces, including M-Audio Delta cards:

- DUAL G5 1.8 GHz system featuring PCI slots (not PCI-X) and 4 RAM slots
- DUAL G5 2.0 GHz system featuring PCI slots (not PCI-X) and 4 RAM slots

<SNIP>

M-Audio has worked closely with Apple to determine the source of this problem and it has been found to be the interaction of the host PCI controller (Apple's part named "K2") and the Delta PCI card.

The incompatibility manifests itself as noise in the signal, sample dropouts, and possibly no audio output at all.

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That is the only bad thing I have read about that machine. Quite frankly I am not sure I beleive M-AUdio when they say it is not thier fault.

I know that there are at least a couple unicornationers that have the 1.8 4 Ram slot machine and have no problems.

(BTW When I was testing that machine, I used an USB audio interface)

I wonder if you retitle your thread something along the lines of "4 ram slot G5's incompatible with DP?" maybe some of the users who have your machine and use it on a daily basis might chime in.

OK I will be quiet now. . .GOOD LUCK.

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NOW WAIT -- Another thing occurs to me. . .I know you do not have a Powercore card, but they had a technote @ http://tcsupport.custhelp.com about this machine that might also give us a clue. Basically there is an issue of running more than one DSP card in this machine. Again I know you do not have more than one DSP card. I can't post the link because their links are crazy long but the document is entitled "Compatibility between Apple PowerMac G5s and PCI-based PowerCores"

and here is the relevant part:

PCI:

If you wish to use only 1 DSP card, all PCI based based PowerCores are compatible with PowerMac G5s with PCI slots.

If you wish to use more than 1 DSP card, we can at the present time not recommend using the PowerCore Element / PowerCore PCI with the:

Single 1.8 GHz G5 with PCI-slots (September 2004 low-end model)
Dual 1.8 GHz G5 with PCI-slots (June 2004 low-end model)
Dual 2.0 GHz G5 with PCI-slots (April 2005 low-end model)

With more than 1 DSP card in the machine (either a 2nd PowerCore or a Universal Audio UAD-1 card), the PowerCore is not initialised correctly during boot-up. We have checked into this issue and are unfortunately not able to offer a solution via a software update, as this issue is directly related to the hardware architecture of the G5.

So if you wish to use 2 DSP cards, we therefore recommend you go for one of the other PowerMac G5 models instead. If you already have one of the G5s mentioned above, you should consider a FireWire-based PowerCore like a PowerCore Compact or a PowerCore FireWire or upgrading to a PowerCore PCI mkII.

Multiple PowerCore PCI mkIIs, run successfully with the Dual 1.8 GHz G5 with PCI-slots (June 2004 low-end model)

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NOW I WILL BE QUIET

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jmmusic · Post by **jmmusic** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 6:50 pm

emulatorloo wrote:----
NOW I WILL BE QUIET

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Please don't! It's great to have someone helping me!

Yes, that Dual 2.0 GHz you cited is the model I own. I specifically purchased it for it's price and PCI card compatibility, while then upcoming models were moving to PCI-X and now PCIe. I knew I wanted to try my UAD-1 in the new machine and grab another RME HDSP9652, which I adore on both mac and pc. It seemed just the thing for a great performance bump... to hold me for a few years while the Intel thing was worked out.

I swear, there has to be a loose wire in there somewhere!

I'll change the thread title. Good call.

Hmmm. The M-Audio thing sounds like what I was thinking is happening here, but with the actual DP4 software package or drivers, etc., not anything hardware.

Regarding the RME audio card: I've seen much positive feedback from other RME/dual G5 users on places like Gearslutz, etc. And after pulling the card a few times and re-testing DP, I really don't believe the HDSP9652 is the culprit. I may go down that road again for the x time, though...

The Total Mix feature on the card is just wonderful for headphone mixes.

Most signs keep pointing back to DP4 or something related to how the Apple sees/interacts with DP4. Hence, the thought, "maybe I should just spring for DP5 and see if that's any better."

For instance, in trying to tax the G5 to its breaking point using only Reason: I must have had 120 NN-XT samplers, synths, crazy effects, loops, etc., etc. God knows how many MIDI notes... it sounded horrible; the G5 never flinched beyond 50-60%. Also, to tie back in to the RME card, Reason has no issues, even spitting out audio out of all 24 lightpipe channels plus the SPDIF to my DA converters with extremely low latency.

And while I don't have a PoCo card (interesting fact you pulled out there), I didn't install the UAD-1 for about 3-4 months after purchasing the G5. I've since pulled it... and re-installed it, updated the card, wiped out the UAD software/plug-ins, re-installed them, etc.

I'm really not asking DP to do too much, mostly MIDI data as most samples are coming in via "outboard" computers. I will ReWire Reason to DP occasionally. I will also sweeten cues with live players, but I have them playing to a temp stereo mix in a separate project, rather than trying overdub to the large MIDI-heavy project.

One other thing I thought of regarding the G5, occasionally when I'm playing an audio file in Quicktime (I have Pro 7) the audio will drop out for a split second. The file continues playing throughout the dropout... like someone slightly sitting on a mute button on a console only to immediately jump off after realizing the error. If you play the file a second time, no drop. If you quit QT and re-open the file, it's fine. I have no idea if this relates to the issues in DP, but it's the only other oddity I have found in working on this machine. This happened during the 1st 6 months I owned the G5, before upgrading to QT Pro, and also since. No difference.

Anyway, thanks again for your help, and, no, don't be quiet!

John

MOTUnation.com

4 ram slot G5's incompatible with DP?

4 ram slot G5's incompatible with DP?

Re: Apple G5 Dual 2.0 GHz and DP4

Re: Apple G5 Dual 2.0 GHz and DP4