UltraLite, 8pre, or Traveler?

[twangster]

Howdy, Unicorns. I'm a newbie here, looking for some hardware guidance.

I'm in the market for a FireWire audio/MIDI interface. I've looked at so much stuff online that my head is spinning. As far as I can tell, there are approximately three categories, pricewise. The boundaries are admittedly a bit fuzzy, but here's the way I'm breaking it down by brands for now:

• High-end ••” RME, Metric Halo
• Mid-Range ••” MOTU, Mackie
• Low-End ••” M-Audio, Edirol, PreSonus, etc...ad infinitum
  Caveat: The groupings are based solely on my subjective perceptions, including reviews I've read. I have no hands-on experience with any of the stuff listed.

My principal use for whatever I end up buying will be in the studio, although any of the units I'm considering will be usable in the occasional live recording applications I might have. Currently, I'm considering only "mid-range" units••”the three MOTU units (UltraLite, 8pre, and Traveler), and a Mackie Onyx 400F••”all of which have (roughly) the features I want, are in my price range, and appear to have the quality I want (therein lies the question).

My prinicipal deciding criteria will be noise specs, mic preamp gain (headroom rules!), and signal quality. I've been all over MOTU's website, and as far as I can tell, MOTU doesn't publish detailed technical specs for its equipment. At least, I couldn't find it. No user manuals or PDF spec sheets available for download...nothing.

I realize that specs are one thing, and actual performance is something else entirely, hence the following questions:

1. Can anyone point me toward MOTU's complete technical specifications for UltraLite, 8pre, and Traveler?
2. Does anyone have experience with the relative quality of the three MOTU units as far as noise, mic preamp gain, and overall signal quality are concerned? (OK...I guess that would exclude the 8pre, which hasn't even shipped yet.)

The online reviews aren't consistent. For example, I've read that Traveler's mic preamp gain is rated at +73dB, but I've also read that the front panel only shows +53dB. Similarly, I've read some glowing reviews of MOTU's mic preamps, and also some reviews that trash them.

For the record, I already have plenty of outboard mic preamp capability in the studio, so in that application I'd mostly be relying on the FireWire interface's line inputs. The mic preamps are mostly for live applications.

Thanks in advance for any replies!

[alobonzo]

Hi,
I won't consider 8pre in your case, I think you need a Main interface.
I would go Traveler as I went in my case, studio and live stuff (4 decent pres)
If you need better pres for live stuff... just connect the pres u have!
Good luck

[baanes]

The travelers pres do only go to +53, at which point they are certainly rather noisy. Because of the 20db pad MOTU lists 73db range. Similarly, the actual gain on the pres of the ultralite is ambiguous. It sounds like it might be only 24db but I did email MOTU asking for specs once and they said they had 46db, then some users in forums have said they go all the way to +60. So who knows. If you have preamps a plenty then there doesn't seem any reason to get the 8pre, especially if you will ever need more than 2 analog outs.
In my opinion the MOTU pres aren't that bad. They sound kind of dark, but are ok - you get what you pay for. I have heard that the Onyx 400F sounds really good (not just the pres, the whole thing) but I've also heard a lot of people are having issues with it, mostly Mac users. On the other side of the fence, sometimes the MOTU units have trouble with windows, although this is usually because they are picky about their firewire cards (they need a TI chipset).

[twangster]

Hi,
I won't consider 8pre in your case, I think you need a Main interface.
I would go Traveler as I went in my case, studio and live stuff (4 decent pres)
If you need better pres for live stuff... just connect the pres u have!
Good luck

Thanks for your reply. Alas, the pres I have are built into the console in my studio, and it's definitely not portable. I do have an API Lunchbox with an API 512b preamp (no longer made, of course). It's a dream. I wish I had bought more of them when they were still extant. With a Neumann TLM-170, the 512b sets a benchmark that has spoiled me rotten...well, actually, with just about any decent mic. It has no trouble with my old RCA 44 ribbon mic.

Fortunately, I don't do much live work. I do have an old Yamaha PM-400 that I've modded; it's got killer specs, but no phantom power. I have to admit that the Traveler is really looking good to me, especially if its preamps are superior to those in the UltraLite or the 8pre. I guess the only way to find out is to snag one and give it a try.

I'm curious about your comment on the 8pre, though. You seem to be saying that it won't serve me well as a "Main interface". This might not be a fair question, given that the 8pre hasn't even hit the streets yet, but why wouldn't it serve as a main interface? Here, my ignorance might be showing, but if all I need is a way to get MIDI and line inputs to Logic Pro via FireWire, why won't it work? It seems to me that as long as Logic (via OS X) can find the inputs, that's all I need. Am I missing something?

Thanks again.

[twangster]

The travelers pres do only go to +53, at which point they are certainly rather noisy. Because of the 20db pad MOTU lists 73db range. Similarly, the actual gain on the pres of the ultralite is ambiguous. It sounds like it might be only 24db but I did email MOTU asking for specs once and they said they had 46db...

Aaaccckkk! I'm really spoiled, I guess. I don't want anything less than +60dB, so I'd probably be pretty unhappy with +46dB...and +24dB is out of the question.

...then some users in forums have said they go all the way to +60. So who knows. If you have preamps a plenty then there doesn't seem any reason to get the 8pre, especially if you will ever need more than 2 analog outs.

Yup...two balanced outputs to feed the monitors is all I need. It's the line inputs that I'm after. I can take direct channel outs from my console to the interface's line inputs, and I'm done. I figured that the mic preamps would be a bonus in a live application, but if they're wimpy, that's a no-go. If that's the case, I might as well just go with the UltraLite...or the Onyx 400F, if I want to spend the bux.

In my opinion the MOTU pres aren't that bad. They sound kind of dark, but are ok - you get what you pay for. I have heard that the Onyx 400F sounds really good (not just the pres, the whole thing) but I've also heard a lot of people are having issues with it, mostly Mac users. On the other side of the fence, sometimes the MOTU units have trouble with windows, although this is usually because they are picky about their firewire cards (they need a TI chipset).

I read one of Craig Anderton's forum threads in which he shook down the Onyx 400F: http://acapella.harmony-central.com/for ... id=1097071

The thread contains some posts by Dan Steinberg, product manager for Mackie recording products. At that time, Dan was using a PowerBook G4 exclusively to test the Onyx 400F (Sheesh...that wouldn't give me a whole lot of confidence if I were a Windows user, but maybe things have changed since then...about 10 months ago). Anyhow, there didn't seem to be any issues between the Mac and the 400F at that time. I've heard that Mackie's Mac support is pretty good, but as you say...who knows.

Still, your comments are valuable. I've read a bunch of product reviews on vendor websites, but in my experience those aren't anywhere near as credible as comments on a dedicated forum like this. It sounds to me like you know what you're talking about. The value is not that anything anyone says here is gospel (including me); rather, the value here is perspective...things that I never would have thought of that I can then go and check out for myself...as in running my own tests on my own system. There are lots of variables.

I've got a local vendor who'll let me take any piece of gear and try it for 10 days and bring it back if I don't like it. Not a bad deal, but I don't want to abuse it. I generally like to have a pretty good idea that I'm going to like something before I take it. I'll keep researching it until I've got better certainty, but I think I'm probably going to end up picking one of the MOTU units and the Onyx 400F and doing a real-world, A-B comparison in the studio. Ultimately, that's the acid test.

Thanks again...your comments are helpful.

[WSVP]

I'm curious about your comment on the 8pre, though. You seem to be saying that it won't serve me well as a "Main interface". This might not be a fair question, given that the 8pre hasn't even hit the streets yet, but why wouldn't it serve as a main interface?

Below is a link one of the many threads that have run on this device.

http://www.unicornation.com/phpBB2/view ... ght=#97825

[twangster]

Below is a link one of the many threads that have run on this device. (8pre)

http://www.unicornation.com/phpBB2/view ... ght=#97825

In your post in that thread, you wrote:

..Requires AC powering (so much for the portability based laptop users).

That's certainly true, but my live recording applications aren't remote; there's always AC available. There's no question that it's a significant limitation for someone who requires complete portability, but that's not a deal-killer in my specific application.

..Two analog outs (no serious cue mixing or surround).

Right. That's a valid consideration. It doesn't happen to be a problem for me now, but I agree that it's worthwhile to look down the road and anticipate the possibility (heck...the likelihood) that my needs will change. I hadn't really thought that part through, but now that you mention it, I can see that it might turn out to be a real limitation in situations wherein I need the additional output capability. Thanks!

..Competing devices in same price range have stronger reputations in the preamp department.

This is the one that might be the deal-killer. Value is always a prime consideration.

I think my original assessement is going to weigh the most heavily here. If the preamps don't cut it, the 8pre really doesn't hold much attraction for me. The two points you raised above are additional nails in its coffin.

I appreciate your response.

[dgraf]

From another newbie-

Been using the Onyx 400f for about a month now - great sound, works as advertised, no problems. Incredibly flexible - but thats Mackie for you. Buily solid.

DG

[alobonzo]

Main Interface to me:
Analog ins and outs, adat ins and outs, MIDI in and out, etc...
8 pre just main out (analog) ok it has 2 adats but u need a converter to get more analog outs from it!
Just received the Traveler, I like it very much.

[twangster]

alobonzo:

OK...I understand what you mean now. That's not how I was defining "main interface", but maybe I need to revise my definition!

Thanks!

[twangster]

From another newbie-
Been using the Onyx 400f for about a month now - great sound, works as advertised, no problems. Incredibly flexible - but thats Mackie for you. Buily solid.
DG

Hey DG:

Looks like you an I are running the same Mac platforms, so maybe that puts the Mac compatibility issue to bed as far as the Onyx 400F is concerned.

Just curious; are you using the Onyx 400F with both your G5 and your MacBook Pro?

[nick danger]

FWIW, the folks at blacklion say that the pres and converters on the traveler are superior to those on the ultralite. So if you have the $300 to spare, the traveler would be the way to go, and you get more connectivity, too.