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I have the Waves Ren Max Bundle and the IKM T Racks Plug-in bundle. Both of these bundle's plug-ins will clip from too hot a signal at input. I simply insert a Trim plug-in and drop by -12dB and this usually does he trick.magicd wrote:
Third party plugs sound different with different levels going in? Sounds plausible. Do you have any specific examples?
Dave
FYI the numeric display on the trim plug's meter goes to over 360 dB. I didn't test it beyond that. I assume it goes much higher. Who would ever need more?magicd wrote:...Put a trim plug in before and after the plug. Add 30 db of gain on one side and take it away on the other side. You should get the same result as if there were no trims in the path...
Phil O wrote:FYI the numeric display on the trim plug's meter goes to over 360 dB. I didn't test it beyond that. I assume it goes much higher. Who would ever need more?
I can't find this comment. I don't think he was suggesting this. You're taking it somewhat out of context. Everybody knows that you could slam tape hard and DID for rock and roll recordings. Just remember to store your tapes "tails out."Splinter wrote:Regarding MD's comment about recording to tape at 0VU: You must have not recorded rock and roll. Rock and roll was ALL about tape compression. That was the beauty of Ampex 499. You could soak that stuff and it would just get creamier and creamier. 0VU was a given... if not hotter! Obviously, hi-hats were not at 0VU.
Yes you are correct. The TDM system doesn't use 32 bit floating, it uses 48 bit. The PT LE system does use 32bit floating, like DP.magicd wrote:A ProTools HD system works in an entirely different way than a native system. Up until now, this discussion has been specifically about Digital Performer running under the MAS engine. If you run Digital Performer using ProTools HD hardware, or if you use ProTools running HD hardware, you are using hardware based DSP processing on the Digidesign farm cards.tripit@earthlink.net wrote: My only testing was done while mixing IB for a live album for an indi label. So, in my test, I was using PT with a ton of plugs
DP native MAS processing is 32 bit floating point resolution all the way through the data path. Depending on the design of the plug-in, resolution can go up to 64 bit float within the plug-in. DPs Masterworks series of plug-ins are an example of 64 bit float processing. Therefore, the test described earlier is a valid, real world test. Essentially what we are talking about is the difference between 3+2 vs 2+3.
TDM plug-ins and the TDM data path do not use floating point resolution processing. The hardware based system uses fixed integer processing. At this point I am going to shut up and step back because I don't want to get details wrong and misrepresent the Digi HD system. However, go check it for yourself. TDM/HD systems do not use 32 bit float processing. Therefore the way TDM works internally is fundamentally different than the native MAS system.
So what does that means for the way you mix? It could mean a lot on the hardware-based system. I don't know. That's not my area of expertise. As I said, everything discussed up to this point has been based on the native processing of the MAS engine.
Dave
Here you go James:James Steele wrote:I can't find this comment. I don't think he was suggesting this. You're taking it somewhat out of context. Everybody knows that you could slam tape hard and DID for rock and roll recordings. Just remember to store your tapes "tails out."Splinter wrote:Regarding MD's comment about recording to tape at 0VU: You must have not recorded rock and roll. Rock and roll was ALL about tape compression. That was the beauty of Ampex 499. You could soak that stuff and it would just get creamier and creamier. 0VU was a given... if not hotter! Obviously, hi-hats were not at 0VU.
magicd wrote:Also, when was the last time you printed to analog tape with your analog meters hovering at 0VU? Anybody I know that has worked with analog considers 0VU as a reference point for gear calibration, not an ideal recording level.
Dang. I thought I was done with the cowbell comment.Splinter wrote: Regarding MD's comment about recording to tape at 0VU: You must have not recorded rock and roll. Rock and roll was ALL about tape compression. That was the beauty of Ampex 499. You could soak that stuff and it would just get creamier and creamier. 0VU was a given... if not hotter! Obviously, hi-hats were not at 0VU.
Okay... I still don't get from A to B from his statement. It really depends on the source as well. When recording analog you'd hit it hard enough so peaks went past 0. Last time I did analog recording I think we were using 456. I only think I got to use 499 or whatever the very last analog project I did over ten years ago. I vaguely remember 499 took a lot more level than 456.Splinter wrote:Here you go James:James Steele wrote:I can't find this comment. I don't think he was suggesting this. You're taking it somewhat out of context. Everybody knows that you could slam tape hard and DID for rock and roll recordings. Just remember to store your tapes "tails out."Splinter wrote:Regarding MD's comment about recording to tape at 0VU: You must have not recorded rock and roll. Rock and roll was ALL about tape compression. That was the beauty of Ampex 499. You could soak that stuff and it would just get creamier and creamier. 0VU was a given... if not hotter! Obviously, hi-hats were not at 0VU.
magicd wrote:Also, when was the last time you printed to analog tape with your analog meters hovering at 0VU? Anybody I know that has worked with analog considers 0VU as a reference point for gear calibration, not an ideal recording level.
Yes, I understand all this technically, but I don't understand what you are saying. If the signal "hovers" at 0VU that means yours peaks are rising considerably above that giving plenty of saturation. But I guess it all depends on how you calibrate your machines. It's been 15 years since I've recording to tape - yes, I was an early embracer of digital recording and, yes, I understand digital metering and the conversation at hand - so, I don't remember the calibration settings we used, but I know we changed them depending on the tape formulation.magicd wrote:It means the 0 on the meter is 4dbu of actual signal. Now notice all that space to the right of the zero on the analog meter? That's where you go to get your best S/N performance, tape saturation, etc. That's where you do the analog slam. Not "hovering around the 0"
tommymandel wrote:Wow, thanks for that post, Gearboy - I sometimes run into distortion in my TRacks, but I never thought of inserting the Trim, and at -12db.
Really gonna help, I appreciate the tip.
Typically, at least for me, we used +6 for 456 and +9 for 499. 499 could really take a beating - I know guys who went higher. Mind you this was on studer 800's at 30ips. Ahh....the smell of fresh tape in the morning.....don't get me started on editing with razor blades.James Steele wrote:
Okay... I still don't get from A to B from his statement. It really depends on the source as well. When recording analog you'd hit it hard enough so peaks went past 0. Last time I did analog recording I think we were using 456. I only think I got to use 499 or whatever the very last analog project I did over ten years ago. I vaguely remember 499 took a lot more level than 456.