MOTUnation.com

Strawman?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

It is not a straw man when you've (meaning I've) worked in computer assisted sequencing since 1988 (or so) and composing since 1968 (or thereabout). It's about having experience in creating scores. I am not ignorant of what you're doing, I simply don't agree and find the practice something of a complete reverse of how I work.

I build each score from the ground up and use as many notes (and tracks) as I require. I let my imagination guide my selections, not let the selections guide my imagination. There are no preset instruments or sounds when I start writing. I don't need lists of every sound and articulation I need and then subtract what I don't need. I imagine what the music will be and add what I need when I need it. It is part of the overall process. I can find a thunder-sheet just as fast and load it up whether it is in the sequence already or not. I prefer a clean sequence to start with. It's less distracting. I will save certain multis in VIs that I know I will need again in similar projects, but these are never 100s of instruments - usually not even a couple of dozen, given key switching, but that's as close as I come to having a set grouping.

It's simply a matter of having a different approach. I find the mega-track approach to be excessive - but there is no need to get personal. If you do, then don't bitch if others feel the need to retaliate. I won't do that and try not to do that whenever I can remember to stay cool and not engage in such trivial pursuits.

You know I resect you and your music, FM. You get great results. Wonderful, but please don't sink to the level of those who feel compelled to resort to name calling and personal attacks. It is so beneath your intellectual abilities.

MIDI Life Crisis wrote:please don't sink to the level of those who feel compelled to resort to name calling and personal attacks. It is so beneath your intellectual abilities.

You scene-stealer, you!



Shoosh

Shooshie wrote:

MIDI Life Crisis wrote:please don't sink to the level of those who feel compelled to resort to name calling and personal attacks. It is so beneath your intellectual abilities.

You scene-stealer, you!



Shoosh

Hey man, somebody's gotta chew up the scenery around here.

What gives? The members marked as moderators, who in most forums are generally relied upon to set an example and to help make sure the tone stays constructive, all of a sudden in this thread turn out to be the biggest trolls, completely unprovoked.

Here's a fairly new member posting a very valid question in a completely respectable tone, and nothing but unconstructive harassing ensues. What the hell?

If you don't have anything constructive to contribute to an original poster's question, why don't you simply refrain from posting altogether?

Yes, there's plenty of things that could be improved in DP's MIDI handling. There's always plenty of things that can be improved with any piece of complex technology. A few of those were even brought up here, in the handful of constructive posts that made it into this thread.

Part of the reason for a forum like this to exist is to provide a place where this kind of dialog can happen - in an open and constructive manner. Especially coming from those here who are regulars, let alone moderators.

Really. What gives?

MIDI Life Crisis wrote: It's simply a matter of having a different approach. I find the mega-track approach to be excessive - but there is no need to get personal. If you do, then don't bitch if others feel the need to retaliate. I won't do that and try not to do that whenever I can remember to stay cool and not engage in such trivial pursuits.

You know I resect you and your music, FM. You get great results. Wonderful, but please don't sink to the level of those who feel compelled to resort to name calling and personal attacks. It is so beneath your intellectual abilities.

Mike! I really can't see why you would feel my statements were a personal attack...

You know I have nothing but respect for you... I consider you my friend!

The strawman comment was a challenge to your comments (the idea), not an attack on your person. I didn't say "you are stupid" or you are "x". I simply felt your comment was a little on the mockery side.

The reason I called it a strawman is because it is: I (and other posters) stated something that you reinterpreted your own way and then "attacked it" (mocked it), and it didn't have anything to do with what we had said. Then you proceeded to imply that insecurity, DP tool usage ignorance, and innefficiency are the reason why people use big templates. If that's not a strawman, then what is it?

Frankly, what you said sounds more like a personal (ok, general) attack than my strawman comment.

I apologize if you felt I was attacking you personally, Mike. As I said, it wasn't intended that way.

Templates are a simple matter of personal preference. What works great for someone may suck for anotherone, and it doesn't make it right or wrong.

Also, when you have to produce full orchestral scores "by tomorrow evening", the last thing you want is to waste time creating tracks and setting up VIs from scratch. That time would be better used for the creative process, would you not agree?

You have a good point Kubi.
My apologies if you think I strayed off the topic.
I don't think I did, I really have a hard time getting my head around the concept of a project with such a massive template or 50 VIs and hundreds of tracks.
I have a hard time managing once I'm hitting 20 or 30 tracks between the system resources and my own arranging skills.
I'm really amazed how much of a difference everyones workflow can be,that in itself is pretty cool!

Uh-oh...

Mike, I did confuse the threads (from the one we were discussing templates: http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtop ... 26&t=52920 ).

So I did crossed threads... I had both opened. Sorry about that.

In light of this, would you settle for "half a strawman" only ? (j/k)

I suppose this makes mine a cross-thread one?

Let's go with Burning Man...

Kubi wrote:What gives? The members marked as moderators, who in most forums are generally relied upon to set an example and to help make sure the tone stays constructive, all of a sudden in this thread turn out to be the biggest trolls, completely unprovoked.

Speaking only for myself, Kubi, I think you're mistaking levity for trolling. I attempted to inject a little jaded humor into what was already becoming a heavily biased topic.

As far as my comments about MIDI comping, well, facts are facts. We've always done things in a way that really resembles the audio comp feature, just using the Tracks Overview Window. It's hardly trolling to describe a workflow feature that people may be overlooking. I hear from lots of people that they never use the Tracks Overview Window, and they don't understand it. That's the backbone of DP! Ignore it, and you've lost a lot of potential power over your sequences. My reply was not the least bit trolling in nature, but 100% supportive of DP and those who use it.

Laughing at MLC? Trolling? Someone's gotta ameliorate these situations, and a little rib-punching beats a big heavy lecture. Besides, I think I understand MLC better than most, and I don't see him so much as a troll here, as a defender of the turf. It's ok to attack the turf and demand change, but we should always hear both sides before making such a decision. Lots of times, what people ask for completely ignores the basic principles of DP. They want it to work like Logic. Well, it doesn't, and it won't. It's not Logic. It's DP, and most of us feel that LOGIC should work more like DP, but it doesn't, and it won't. So, we keep the turfs separate. Nothing wrong there. If we find a huge flaw that's holding us back, because we simply don't have the tools, then we agree and support the change. If the change just adds another redundant way of doing things, then we don't support it so much. Sometimes people need to learn to do things the DP way.

Not trolling here, Kubi. I promise you that. And I really don't think that MLC is trolling. He's not provoking the debate, just providing the other side to it. MLC takes things a little more personally than some folks. That's ok. There are all kinds of folks here. Some of us just have a more personal attachment to these things. Nothing wrong with that. Like you, they [we] make they're [our] living with DP, and consider it a very personal sort of tool. You don't want other people changing up your tools beyond recognition, so you make sure that a feature really is called for before supporting it.

Everyone who thinks this is turning too confrontational, just close the thread and go read others. We're still fine here. It has not erupted into a cataclysmic war, but is still at the level of healthy debate. If you support a potential feature, stand up for it! Don't expect to do it without resistance. I get resistance to everything I propose or support, but if I believe in it, I keep on supporting it. Full speed ahead! Damn the torpedoes!

Shooshie

Shooshie wrote: If you support a potential feature, stand up for it! Don't expect to do it without resistance. I get resistance to everything I propose or support, but if I believe in it, I keep on supporting it. Full speed ahead! Damn the torpedoes!

Shooshie

You mean resistance like this:??
http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtop ... 26&t=50777

Man, that was a good debate with Mr. Shoosh! (I still want all those features, BTW)

I agree that DP ideas and suggestions should be debated and scrutinized. Not only to learn of workarounds, but also for refining the ideas and seeing whether they have merit or not.

I think some of you guys take this internet thing waaaay too seriously. Speaking for myself, I will always play Devil's advocate, be it online or in person. If I disagree with something I will speak my mind.

As far as being a moderator, that comes second to being a member. I'm not here to baby anyone, or stroke any egos, or be a diplomat, per se. I'm here because I use DP and MOTU stuff and love to make music and sound. Period.

If I disagree with a working procedure like having 500 tracks in each template, that has NOTHING to do with my support of MOTU products, which is, after all, the focus of this forum.

If you think a moderator or a member is out of line or acting like a troll then by all means complain to James Steel, who holds the reins to the site. He can boot any of us at will.

I don't think I take things personally (as Shooshie mentioned). I do, however, speak in a direct, pull no punches way. Always have. Always will. If it offends ANYONE you can simple block my posts by going to my profile and select Add Foe or click this link to confirm you want to do that: Add Foe.

It makes absolutely no difference to me. Really.

I don't think I'm a troll.

I also don't think that moderators need to always be warm and cozy... We must watch that the few forum rules we have (James') are observed and try to keep a civil environment, that's all.

Some styles are a little more direct than others, and 96% of the time all debates and discussions remain vigorous but courteous (at least not blatantly rude).

Like MLC said, if someone feels a moderator has crossed a line, we can be reported to the High Command.

FMiguelez wrote:I don't think I'm a troll.

No. Clearly, you are a pirate. I'm the troll... LOL!

HEY, YOU KIDS! KEEP OFF MY BRIDGE!

FMiguelez wrote:

Shooshie wrote: If you support a potential feature, stand up for it! Don't expect to do it without resistance. I get resistance to everything I propose or support, but if I believe in it, I keep on supporting it. Full speed ahead! Damn the torpedoes!

Shooshie

You mean resistance like this:??
http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtop ... 26&t=50777

Man, that was a good debate with Mr. Shoosh! (I still want all those features, BTW)

Oh Haysoos H Kristo! THAT thread? Mon dieu!!! I just read parts of that again. It makes the hair stand up on my head! (and that's 2-ft. long hair… quite a trick)

BTW, I don't know why I never mentioned this in that thread, but most of what you were asking for (in the linked thread up in the quote above) could actually be done with the Custom Consoles. If you have a template that never changes, you could use a custom console with pre-configured tracks and controllers. It would be a HELLUVA lot of work to create it, but once you did, you could probably use the hardware you have to control the custom consoles, and do a lot of editing that way. Not having attempted something that massive, I don't know how well it would work. Also, I don't know how you'd get around the Touch/Latch control thing. There are settings that MIGHT allow it to punch in edits. Not sure about that, and haven't tried to use it that way. Someone might brush up on all the finer points of the Custom Consoles and see if it could be done. I should add this post to that thread.

Yeah, that was a difficult thread. Very difficult. And I still have exactly the same position now that I had then. Haven't changed a bit, other than the potential of the custom consoles, which may not work at all, but which are specific enough that they might be usable in the context of a never-changing template.

Shoosh

FMiguelez wrote:Uh-oh...

Mike, I did confuse the threads (from the one we were discussing templates: http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtop ... 26&t=52920 ).

So I did crossed threads...

Everyone should have this in their bathrooms or on the fridge:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/