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I've made money producing indies, but never enough to make it the day job. I'm still trying to get there. Do I get off the treadmill to try to make it happen? Can I? Dunno.

I envy you who have been able to get your sputnik into orbit.

jloeb wrote:I've made money producing indies, but never enough to make it the day job. I'm still trying to get there. Do I get off the treadmill to try to make it happen? Can I? Dunno.

I envy you who have been able to get your sputnik into orbit.

If you are producing indies, then you are essentially doing the same thing as, say, David Foster. The difference is that you're being paid less.

The things you would have to focus on to make that change are:

1. Are there really people out there who would like to hear the stuff you're producing?
If not, produce something salable. It's just as easy/hard as producing whatever it is you're creating.
2. Who are they, where are they, and how do I reach them to get them to buy this stuff?
In other words, marketing. Whether you do it the Frank Zappa way (just taking the bands on the road and conquering one town at a time) or the American Idol way, this requires an enormous amount of work, dedication, and potentially a large fortune just to break even. But if you can get it to turn a profit, it beats stocks and bonds.

It's fun to create music. Not much fun to market it. But without someone selling a product, it soon disappears. Only sex and food sell themselves, and even then its hard to get any brand loyalty. Even the Beatles STILL have people out there selling them. That sales force for the Beatles has never gone on hiatus. If it did, chances are those sales would diminish to a trickle in a decade or two. The genius of American Idol is that it's a gigantic infomercial that gets the public to buy into it before there's even a product, while having outside sponsors pay for the infomercial! Brilliant!

For the rest of us, there's iTunes and blogs. What's kind of surprising, though, is that in this difficult time for the business, even the big names are using the same tools as the rest of us. The hard thing is getting your stuff on that front page. One girl recently did it by making "the world's worst song." Last I saw, it had about 15 million hits on YouTube, a hundred parodies, and the girl got a record deal. There's always a new angle. The show I was with did one town at a time, but got on the morning radio station the day of the concert and always sold out the hall. Then we sold a ton of product during and after the show. I stayed out of that side, having gotten "sales" out of my system during my agency days. For me, the real pleasures are two: the creation period and the applause. Everything in between is just work.

Shooshie

We need to delineate a bit here, I think. What Shoosh is saying applies to songwriters and bands, but the process of getting scoring and related work is often who you know. It about networking, personal connections and sometimes being in the right place at the right time.

Luck plays a very big part in success or failure, and as has been said many times before, the harder I work, the luckier I get.

You might get lucky with iTunes, or YouTube, but you have to get out and interact with (not just meet) people who are in a position to hire you, and you have to be ready to deliver the goods on time and on spec. There's a lot implied in that last statement. Training (including self training), practice, creativity, equipment, some disposable income, reinvestment in your career, some marketing, PR, and flexibility in all aspects of doing this stuff full time.

THAT is the key, IMO. If you don't do it full time, it becomes harder and harder to do part time. Then you start chasing dollars and the career starts to suffer - at least that is what I have avoided like the plague: part time 'work.'

I decided long ago, I was going to be a composer as my sole occupation or die trying. I didn't care about having enough food, owning a house or property, or the other American dreams. When times got tough and people said I should do jobs unrelated to being a composer, I truly felt that I would rather be dead. Not that I would out myself, but again, I would rather die trying to be a composer and fail than to die living as something that held no interest for me. There simply is no room for anything in my life that is not related to my music. I also have the perfect woman as my wife, who totally understands and supports that commitment to career. She is equally dedicated to hers and between the two of us we get by and have for 29 years now. That's also where the idea of luck comes into it.

Truly, no man is an island. Or to quote Buzzy Linhart (and damn his girlfriend could 'play the snot' out of the piano):

You got to have friends...

I am mainly a musician , started playing gigs at 16 in clubs and for High schools back when you could make a living by playing weekends , the early middle 70's , moved to LA from Seattle with the same band playing guitar , 1979 got a record deal with warner brothers that lasted for 3 years , made 2 records , did some touring with big names , mostly loved being in the studio and all aspects of recording . Got to record in some great rooms including Kendun recorders in Burbank Ca , and Capitol Records . It sounded much better back then to me with the westlake rooms , 24 track tape , SSL and big Neve consoles . After the Band break-up I went and worked at an 8 track studio in Sunland Ca and I have been recording ever since . I made a lot of contacts in LA and still work with them but it seems like everyone is barely getting by these days . I play live , record , teach percussion , and it is still not enough to make a living . If it wasen't for my wife and her ease of the corporate world , I would be busking at Trader Joes with the rest of the out of work musicians . I love what I do and have hope for a better Day . This is all I know how to do and I am grateful for that .

Tom Brighton wrote:I am mainly a musician , started playing gigs at 16 in clubs and for High schools back when you could make a living by playing weekends , the early middle 70's , moved to LA from Seattle with the same band playing guitar , 1979 got a record deal with warner brothers that lasted for 3 years , made 2 records , did some touring with big names , mostly loved being in the studio and all aspects of recording . Got to record in some great rooms including Kendun recorders in Burbank Ca , and Capitol Records . It sounded much better back then to me with the westlake rooms , 24 track tape , SSL and big Neve consoles . After the Band break-up I went and worked at an 8 track studio in Sunland Ca and I have been recording ever since . I made a lot of contacts in LA and still work with them but it seems like everyone is barely getting by these days . I play live , record , teach percussion , and it is still not enough to make a living . If it wasen't for my wife and her ease of the corporate world , I would be busking at Trader Joes with the rest of the out of work musicians . I love what I do and have hope for a better Day . This is all I know how to do and I am grateful for that .

70's - Seattle...Tom, the following bands must be familiar to you...
Bighorn, Shyanne, Blue Sky, Fragile Lime, Aviary.

Parkers Ballroom (the Aquarius)...the Paramount...My Place Too out by
SeaTac...those were the days.

MIDI Life Crisis wrote: I decided long ago, I was going to be a composer as my sole occupation or die trying. I didn't care about having enough food, owning a house or property, or the other American dreams. When times got tough and people said I should do jobs unrelated to being a composer, I truly felt that I would rather be dead. Not that I would out myself, but again, I would rather die trying to be a composer and fail than to die living as something that held no interest for me. There simply is no room for anything in my life that is not related to my music. I also have the perfect woman as my wife, who totally understands and supports that commitment to career. She is equally dedicated to hers and between the two of us we get by and have for 29 years now. That's also where the idea of luck comes into it.

Truly, no man is an island. Or to quote Buzzy Linhart (and damn his girlfriend could 'play the snot' out of the piano):

You got to have friends...

Bravo to you man, that is great to hear that you have stuck to your composition and it is great you have a woman who supports your dreams and resolve to compose.
This has been a fascinating set of posts and it has been nice to learn more about a few of you all.

I have made a living in music since the day I left high school and before that even. I recall almost missing my graduation due to a gig...lol....I was a semi-pro by my last yr of high school. Then landed gigs as a guitarist in world premier operas, then toured with rock acts, etc etc...then taking the $ and buying a studio, then turning to producing...never looking back.

This set of posts has been real food for thought.
I have been busier than ever. But I find myself wishing to change from producing other's and making other's look good, to doing more composition of my OWN music, (besides co-writes with the artists I work with).

I have told the story many times of how my own music has gotten lost in the shuffle of the music of others. It started when I bought a recording studio to "record my own music"...After a few yrs, and upon hearing my production chops, I was recording others and it has remained so to this day.
I have been the "invisible magician" behind a lot of music...almost all of it, my playing and production, ( I play a lot of instruments), but not enough of it my own vision, my own identity. I let the businessmen come to me to make product and fulfill the visions of their artists.

So yes, indeed, full time for me, but full time for who is my problem. I do need to find a way to turn full time into MY MUSIC.

So even those of us who have done music full time might not be doing the right music full time.

I know that for those who don;t get to do music for a living at all, they would love to do production for a living. And I am happy that I have made a living of this. But that is not the perfection one might imagine if one wants to compose truly great, original, ground breaking music...It is possible that starvation is the price for that, or, having a job bagging groceries.

So those of you out there doing your own brand of music, with your own vision, feel proud of yourselves. Success is not just doing ANY music full time. Success might be sticking to your guns and doing your own music while bagging groceries.

I am doing a Simon and Garfunkle project this month that might be the start of something more original, more MY vision..funny as that sounds...We'll see what happens...

Music has been my only source of income since 2003. Having said that my wife has a good day job and a lot of patience!
In truth, I spend most of my time these days minding our kids.
I know plenty of people who have forsaken the idea of having kids because of their music careers.
But over the years I've gigged extensively, toured, produced and sold my own music, taught guitar and done a little music for TV and film.
My biggest issue these days is trying to find enough time to do as much music as I would like and justifying that with some income.
Luckily though I'm still as passionate about it as I've ever been and I have plenty of projects on the go, all of which involve some level of income.

toodamnhip wrote:So yes, indeed, full time for me, but full time for who is my problem. I do need to find a way to turn full time into MY MUSIC.

So even those of us who have done music full time might not be doing the right music full time.

It was just over three years ago when my partner and collaborator died. Actually, it's more the other way around; he was the star of our show and I was the partner and collaborator. Just to be clear. Between working with him and the various musical jobs before that, I had been making music for a living for some 30 years. I'd been arranging music since high school, and composing a little on the side. Through all those 30 years, I had visions of doing things of my own, the way I wanted to, without compromising with anyone else. I mean, I enjoy collaboration -- very much -- but my list of projects for myself has just grown and grown, so when my friend died, I just said "this is it. It's time to do those things." Financially I was in a position to do that if I lived frugally -- which is my normal way of living. I'm not a spender. My kids were nearly out of college, and expenses were starting to go down.

I like the way you put that: even making a living with music, it may not be the RIGHT music. It's just time for me to do the RIGHT music, and the absolute truth is that I don't even care if it makes me a penny. These are things I've wanted to do. They've been eating on me for years. I come across this stuff periodically, and realize that I've slowly collected what I need to do this, and now I have it all. The only thing missing is the time to do it, so rather than hit the trail beating the bushes for new jobs, I chose this path instead. As I said in a previous post, it's a little bit of heaven and a little bit of hell.

If you choose this path, be sure first of all that you are financially secure. Starvation does not make for good inspiration. Nothing will split up a loving family faster than unpaid bills and a dad that goes into his little cave and doesn't re-emerge for 24 hours. But assuming you've got this part worked out, the next thing is setting some rules for progress. Mine is simply to make sure I actually get everything ready to work, ready to go, every day. Once I get rolling, I don't don't need anything to keep me going. It's getting set up and started that are my problems. In fact, once I'm going, I need something to make me stop. If I'm set up and ready to go, it's ok if I do other things until an idea comes to me. I don't force myself to sit there and stare at it. I read the news, go to town, walk the dog, write on the forum -- wherever life leads me. Then when an idea comes, it's just a matter of command-tab, and I'm there. Nothing can stop me then.

toodamnhip wrote:I know that for those who don't get to do music for a living at all, they would love to do production for a living. And I am happy that I have made a living of this. But that is not the perfection one might imagine if one wants to compose truly great, original, ground breaking music...It is possible that starvation is the price for that, or, having a job bagging groceries.

So those of you out there doing your own brand of music, with your own vision, feel proud of yourselves. Success is not just doing ANY music full time. Success might be sticking to your guns and doing your own music while bagging groceries.

It may work for some, but I can't do that. Even doing music all day for someone else for a paycheck -- though thrilling that I'm getting paid to do something like I'd be doing anyway -- is still a job. At the end of the day I do not have the energy or interest left to sit down again and make music for ME. Only by not working for someone else do I have the energy to work and the freedom to let my mind go. Some days I'm super-productive. Some days I accomplish absolutely nothing. But as I said above, I'm ready to work when the ideas strike. I've got it open. My eyes see the familiar screens of DP in front of me, the familiar keys of the piano (well, Kurzweil 2600 with Ivory), and the instruments that I play. It's a comfortable feeling when it's up and running, but again, the big hump for me is startup. Literally, clicking on the apps and files, getting a template or project up and ready to work, having the instruments sitting there waiting to be played. I know if I spent the day bagging groceries or busking tables or whatever, I would NOT come home and do that. I'd prop my feet up and read a book. I'd check the internet.

I think it's pretty important to be able to get out of bed, get dressed for work, eat breakfast, and start your job the way you would if you were punching a clock. When I was 30 years younger, I could do two jobs. But even my other job was music: teaching it to students. Then I'd go home and arrange, practice, rehearse, and whatever was needed for the "real" work I was doing. Call me burned out, but I just can't do that kind of thing anymore. I need more room to think. Time to be slow. Time to write useless posts about how I spend my time writing useless posts. I hope that I will have something to show for it, but I must say that when I ignore the fact that I'm not getting a regular paycheck -- something we're conditioned to think is necessary, no matter how we manage to get by -- this has been the best time of my life. Lots of learning involved. LOTS. I'm finding that it's taking me a lot longer to get to the level of skill I expect from myself at the music at which I thought I was an expert. This whole thing is a process, and I've had to teach myself where I lacked experience and relied on others before. But that's what I've always done. Teach myself what I need to get the music made. And I consider it a privilege to be able to do this now. I hope that some day I can connect with someone willing to pay to hear it, but if that's not the case, I will have the satisfaction of having tried. Previously, I didn't even know for sure if I could do this. Now I'm doing it.

Shoosh

MIDI Life Crisis wrote:...THAT is the key, IMO. If you don't do it full time, it becomes harder and harder to do part time. Then you start chasing dollars and the career starts to suffer - at least that is what I have avoided like the plague: part time 'work.'...

I can attest to that. In recent years business has fallen off and I've been forced to take a part time job teaching. In retrospect, I'm not sure it was a good idea. I think the time I've spent away from my business has hurt my business in the long run. For that reason, I'm considering taking a break from teaching this summer to try and get my business back up to speed. Either that or move to Australia and hang with Monkey Man.

Phil

I’ve managed to make a living from engineering, mixing and production since 1976. Still going strong.

I was first a house engineer, then have been freelance since 1979. I record, mix and produce in all kinds of environments and setups, whatever is called for basically.

I introduced DP into my workflow during the 90’s when Vision went t**s up. Around the same time I started to compose again as well.

Although the last 10 years have been somewhat precarious in our business, and I have been through some lean times, I now find my professional life is divided between projects where I am working in commercial studios, usually with ProTools, sometimes with a totally analogue old school setup, and frequently now mixing projects at home on DP. I love them all, different disciplines for different projects and artists.

DP has become so powerful recently, with the introduction of strong third party emulation plugins.

I spent much of last year mixing an album for Kate Bush, ‘Director’s Cut’ which is due for release soon. For this I had to get my head back inside working with 48 track analog, an ageing SSL and mixing to half inch. It was a wonderful experience and forced me to get back to that particular headspace and discipline. Progress was slow, but very focussed.

I brought that experience back with me for a new album I have been mixing for The Fixx. I recorded and mixed their first four albums, and here I am all these years later mixing their album in-the-box in DP. Thanks to the likes of Softube, Slate and Nomad Factory I have pulled in some of the benefits of analogue emulation, and this album has turned out brilliantly and I am very proud. (apart from the fact that it sounds brilliant, it also is a stunning collection of songs, performances and arrangements)

I am comfortable in just about any studio environment, but many of my clients now really appreciate how efficient, and cost-effective, it can be to send me their projects to work on at home. Things certainly have changed, but I made it my mission to adapt and change along with everything else.

I’m still basically an enthusiast and nerd at heart! My day job has always been my hobby as well.

warmest best wishes

Stephen

Tom Brighton wrote:70's - Seattle...Tom, the following bands must be familiar to you...
Bighorn, Shyanne, Blue Sky, Fragile Lime, Aviary.

Parkers Ballroom (the Aquarius)...the Paramount...My Place Too out by
SeaTac...those were the days.

Hi David ,Yep , Know of all those bands , almost joined blue sky . Use to hang with the guys in Aviary when they came to LA and almost got a deal with there production company headed by Yes manager Brian Lane .
Played all those rooms except Parkers , Funny , My Place was a topless bar where one of our players went nuts and quit the band .
David , you must have spent some time in Seattle in the day .

That's some amazing insight, Shooshie. It really puts things in perspective.

In my case, having a great (if overworked) day job surrounded by amazing people, makes the risk of going full-time less appealing -- even though time constraints are always my number one frustration.

But I hadn't really thought about what I am doing being not much different than if I were in the big leagues, production-wise.

For me though, I have intense loyalty, and those that I am loyal to cannot pay much, but keep me intensely busy (and satisfied with the outcome).

So, I do not produce as my "day job", but I do produce as my "night job".

Jingles, Broadway-style musicals, soundtrack/soundscape/film work, local artists, my own stuff (lowest of the totem pole -- except my at-one-time-semi-successful synth-pop band Moonlife), website audio.

I guess it isn't that different from those who do it as a day job after all. Except I don't have a high-end treated room as my studio.

I am a singer/songwriter, and because of the amazing technology now available, a (self-)producer.

I have a full-time job (career really, that in itself is extremely rewarding).

My biggest regret is that I never had any formal music training. It makes it very very very hard. My second biggest regret is that there are not enough hours in the day. My third biggest regret is that I know very few musicians.

This is about the only forum I ever participate in. Which leads me to thank everyone on this forum for all I've picked up. When I know anything I can contribute to, I do so.

One day I hope you all will listen to my music. You'll love it. In all modesty, ahem .... Well, I hope so anyway!

I have been extremely blessed to be able to roll out of bed every day for the last 18 years and pay the bills solely by recording, producing, mixing, and mastering music for artists, bands, publishing houses, etc. here in the St. Louis area.

But only since I've joined this forum a few years ago have I really felt that I was part of a community...so that's what really matters to me.

MIDI Life Crisis wrote:...I decided long ago, I was going to be a composer as my sole occupation or die trying.....

this little bit in the thread caused me to reflect back with a smile on my university days (early 70's!).

I was buried in directed studies in theory and analysis. I was *not* studying a "performance instrument" and I was *not* pursuing teaching credentials. In fact, as was pointed out to me by the Dean of the school, I was the *first* student they could recall that wasn't going after one or the other. The conversation went something like;
Dean: "Willie, what are you going to do after you leave us?"
me: "I'm going to compose...."
Dean:"Fine, Willie, but what are you going to *do*?"
me: "I'm going to compose...."
(very frustrated) Dean: "yeah, but what are you going to *DOOOO*?!?!!

MIDI Life Crisis wrote:I also have the perfect woman as my wife...

uhhh...hey...wait...that would be *MY* claim to fame!!