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grimepoch wrote:Outside of that, as James pointed out, I am really curious to see the enhancements that the pre-render adds. That said, what REALLY needs to be implemented is the same concept of multi-buffer sizes. For instance, I am working on a track in Logic with 60+ plugs on 34 channels at 128 buffer size. Yes, that is amazing. It has been explained to me that channels not set to record use longer buffer times where ones that are set to record use a shorter buffer time. If DP implemented this type of scheme, performance would probably shoot through the roof (with the other changes they are adding).

I was just thinking about this, and my guess is that pre-rendering will actually be an improvement over the concept of multiple buffers. Plus, it seems to follow that all plugin effects on instrument tracks will now be pre-renderable as well. A huge boon for me, as I use a lot of FX on my instrument channels.

grimepoch wrote:Well I can say I started on Voyetra on the PC, then Cakewalk, then Samplitude, then a little Ardour on Linux, then a friend showed me DP and I'v been on the Mac with DP ever since.

Ahhh... we both go back a ways, my friend. I started on a PC with Robert Keller's 48-track PC and an MPU-401 interface. Later bought Cakewalk 1.0. Became a Mac guy somewhere around the mid 80s. Owned Vision and Performer, then later Studio Vision Pro and Digital Performer. I was always somewhat torn between DP and SVP, slightly favoring DP. Then Gibson solved that dilemma for me once and for all. When you mention Trent Reznor using Logic, I'm fairly certain he is a Studio Vision Pro exile.

As has been expressed so many times, amidst great wailing and gnashing of teeth: it was a shame what happened to Opcode.

ewtwolf wrote:Lol, well I guess I should expect some heated responses saying Logic sucks, just didn't expect it here....Everything I said is just my opinion so if you don't like it, no harm done, just walk away.

To me Logic sucks in the sense that I really want it to work the way I need it to work but I'm always having to jump through strange work arounds or just accept its sloppy design. I find it funny that no one commented on using the multi-timbral vi's in Logic...that's the main part of my frustration. The fact that it doesn't show individual meters for each subsequent track added to a VI outside of the mixer. I also found it frustrating that the channel strip inspector doesn't referrence additional tracks for a multi-instrument. Every other DAW does these things right. And what about folder tracks? I just think it is completely wierd how Logic handles them. i understand their use, but it isn't as elegent as DP, Cubase or Sonar. I like DP in how it manages the workspace. I feel there are great organization tools for someone working with lots of tracks.

As for performance, I didn't mean this daw loads this many plugs vs that one...I was merely stating that for the instruments I use, like Kontakt 3, DP 5.13 is more stable at the moment. I'm having serious issues with multiple instances of Kontakt in Logic freezing my plugin GUI's, I keep getting the spinning beach ball of doom. And right now I have more CPU spikes in Logic with regards to Kontakt, although the earlier version of DP 5 were performing worse on that front.

It just felt refreshing to jump back into DP and finally get the work flow. That was the meat of my post. I thought I would share my excitement with other DP users...didn't expect to get flamed by Logic lovers in this forum

I am going to hold onto both apps, but I really feel for my workflow, DP is rockin at the moment and again, I'm really excited about version 6.

You can say Logic Sux around me. Honestly, I don't care what any of the other DAWs do. DP works so well for me, and despite its flaws (such as the Disk Error 103) I forgive it and simply feel privileged to be able to sit down to work every day on such an advanced platform that allows me to do what I've loved for the past 20-Odd years.

I've got Logic, and I will use it again. But right now I'm rapidly climbing some learning curves in the VI department, and I'd rather spend my time perfecting those than worrying about where to find xyz in Logic. Ultimately, it's harder to use than DP, and I don't think I produce as good work in Logic as in DP. That's all I need to know. It may or may not suck; that doesn't matter to me. DP rocks, and that's what's important.

Shooshie

I tell you one thing, working on the PC is something I definitely don't miss That was the WORST of days for me. I remember I had an M-Audio Delta 1010 and I had put together a computer using a FAQ on music making computers. Bought the EXACT motherboard they recommended only to discover that the PCI bus had a MAJOR flaw in it and I couldn't do more than 8 channels of audio. Very horrible. I also believe you are right about Trent, as I have seen mention of what he used before as well.

I should also mention that most of the musician pros that I read about use a combination of Logic and ProTools, in the same way that I use Logic and DP.

As for pre-rendering, we'll see how that works. From a programmers point of view, I can see pluses and minus to this method. For instance, any MIDI note change on a pre-rendered track is going to cause the entire track to have to be re-rendered since DP will have no way of knowing how causal a track is (time-dependent). And then, things like side chain controlled compressors or effects and bussing are going to add further complexity. I think ultimately the only issue we'll have to deal with is the same as the effects now, the jumping around of audio when it goes from pre-render to live and vice versus.

I still contend the best of both worlds should be the ultimate goal. More so for one reason. I'd like the record enabled tracks to switch to a lower buffer size. Of course, all we can do is wait and see!

Today is the first time I'm working on a project using both LP8 and DP5. I have to say this rocks big time. I don't care about the learning curves etc. as long as my system delivers like this. For me it's a new level of productiveness. Very very cool

Thanks for the tip on the Multi setup in Logic -- I never noticed that option!

Still a bit ironic that I post my interest in DP, on a MOTU loving forum, and I get the one guy who tries to talk me back into Logic.

It's cool, both programs are great, and as someone said: hold onto both and use them for each for their strengths.

Peace,

Haha, see, this is what I like about this group of people here. We are not an island, we are not isolated by fandom of a product. We've got a task to do and everyone here is always committed to helping each other out.

My message is simple: Keep your eyes and ears open, and use the right tool for the right job.

I thought I had tools at my disposal before, when I just used DP, now I find I have an AMAZING palette to work with. Further, when I see something done better in one program than the other, you can bet your @$$ that I am the first to email BOTH companies about what feature they should add!

As an aside. I was reading that Dave Gahan used Logic & Abeleton for doing a live show. Can I just say I'd NEVER NEVER NEVER use Logic 8 live. Abeleton I can see for it's live remixing capabilities. However, I have used DP live for every show I have done and it has worked FLAWLESSLY.

ewtwolf wrote:So, I just wanted to announce to world that DP rules, Logic Sucks, and I'm really excited about version 6. To me Apple is trying to wedge itself into the market by over offering a bunch of bloatware. Sure, for someone new, having all those old instruments and effects might be nice, but I'd rather spend my money on a top effects suite and new fresh sounding VI's to run in DP.

All things considered, I find that Logic is an excellent addition to my studio. I'm sorry to hear you hate it so much, but to each his own.

grimepoch wrote: The thing is, the simple solution might be right there and you don't see if. For instance. If I want to create another MIDI track for a multi-timbral instrument, I select the last track and go up to the menu and select "New with Same Channel Strip/Instrument". Creates a new MIDI track to start adding more for a multi-timbral instrument. In DP I would create a new MIDI track, then select the next MIDI port on that VI or whatever. Same number of steps.

DP still beats it in simplicity. You always leave out V-Racks, and I think you'd really benefit from V-Racks, Grim, for it's the simplest, fastest, easiest, best implementation of VI's I've ever seen. If I want to add multi-timbral tracks to existing tracks for a VI, All I do is select the track and hit COMMAND-CONTROL-S. (Add similar track)

Immediately my track is there, all set up and ready to go. If I want a different instrument, I just change the MIDI channel. There is no faster way to do it.


Meanwhile, perhaps you can tell me, Grim, where in Logic I can draw in my velocity curves. I've searched the manual a dozen times for this, and I cannot find it. I want the ability to use something like DP's Reshape Tool to draw my phrasing over the velocities of, say, a hundred notes in a single stroke.

Also, where can I select a single note along with all its CC data, to move the entire selection a little (or a lot) to the left or right? In DP, I can grab Notes and Continuous Data in one rectangle, move them a little, and I'm done. I don't have to open another window or anything else. Until I find how Logic does all this, I'm not much interested in working in MIDI in it. It does all the above with more steps (sometimes a LOT more), and it seems that in general the implementation of velocities and continuous data is awkward and poorly thought-out.

Can you recommend any methods for that?

Shooshie

grimepoch wrote:As for pre-rendering, we'll see how that works. From a programmers point of view, I can see pluses and minus to this method. For instance, any MIDI note change on a pre-rendered track is going to cause the entire track to have to be re-rendered since DP will have no way of knowing how causal a track is (time-dependent). And then, things like side chain controlled compressors or effects and bussing are going to add further complexity. I think ultimately the only issue we'll have to deal with is the same as the effects now, the jumping around of audio when it goes from pre-render to live and vice versus.

Yea, I hate to even think about what has to happen beneath the hood for all this to work! But it just occurred to me••¦if pre-rendering MIDI works, then it seems reasonable we can accurately chase note ons now. Starting playback in the middle of a note event should play that note from the middle rather than from the top, so I hope. If so, that would be huge! No more frustration with cymbal swells and long, evolving pads.

grimepoch wrote:My message is simple: Keep your eyes and ears open, and use the right tool for the right job.

Agreed!

I did look at V-racks, but I guess I still just didn't get how to use it in my setup. I use anywhere from 24->30 VIs in every song I do. That list of 24-30 changes DRASTICALLY from song to song. So much so that if I put all the number of instruments I used into the V-racks for every song, it would certainly destroy my machine! Maybe I still don't get it, someone should throw together a video for us non-believers!

As for the reshape tool, if I want to change the velocity of a bunch of notes to a line, I open up the Hyper Editor, select the 'Line Tool' and then drag a line on the velocities I want to set. Granted it is NO WHERE near as powerful as the reshape editor in DP. You can also do this in the window below the piano roll by clicking and dragging to the start velocity, then letting go and going to the final location and ending velocity and the clicking again.

Of course, DP is a lot more powerful in this feature BY FAR and the ability to draw waveforms for automation which you cannot do in Logic. I really don't like that part of Logic's automation editor.

I do however love that you can keep dropping down multiple parameters in Logic and see them all separate and edit them separately. This is WAY BETTER than DP's approach which has the lovely effect of switching which parameter you are looking at if you click slightly wrong.

As for CC stuff moving with the notes, no clue. Typically my MIDI sections are VERY short so if I move things around, it's region I am moving and I have it move/copy the automation data with it. This would be a good suggestion for them because there really is no reason you shouldn't be able to select both when the HyperEdit is open and move them both. I don't normally do that fine of editing with CC stuff, but I can understand those who need that level of edibility that is fast ESPECIALLY when dealing with like wind controllers and the like. A clear area where DP's MIDI editing ability for this situation dominates.

Where it fails for me is things like I can go in and mute individual notes inside a region in Logic if I want to just test turning off a few notes that I am playing with. Also, the non-destructive Quantize abilities from the inspector OR the non-destructive groove quantization and learning. I really do like the groove stuff in DP as well, but it's different and I've found some great uses for taking the groove of say my drums and easily applying it to a synth line that isn't sitting right in the mix, but that the notes are right for what I want.

I think what it comes down to is when I need MIDI, the region based editing works best for me. That's why I've always said I'd love for DP to have 2 types of MIDI tracks. The classic what is in there now, then a region based like Logic. Then everyone wins

blue wrote:

grimepoch wrote:As for pre-rendering, we'll see how that works. From a programmers point of view, I can see pluses and minus to this method. For instance, any MIDI note change on a pre-rendered track is going to cause the entire track to have to be re-rendered since DP will have no way of knowing how causal a track is (time-dependent). And then, things like side chain controlled compressors or effects and bussing are going to add further complexity. I think ultimately the only issue we'll have to deal with is the same as the effects now, the jumping around of audio when it goes from pre-render to live and vice versus.

Yea, I hate to even think about what has to happen beneath the hood for all this to work! But it just occurred to me••¦if pre-rendering MIDI works, then it seems reasonable we can accurately chase note ons now. Starting playback in the middle of a note event should play that note from the middle rather than from the top, so I hope. If so, that would be huge! No more frustration with cymbal swells and long, evolving pads.

The pre-rendering feature is the one that I am actually nervous about. Try as I might, I can't come up with a method of pre-rendering that won't bog the system down. We'll find out what kind of magic MOTU has come up with soon enough I guess. Lets keep our fingers crossed...

-Kevin

grimepoch wrote:Where it fails for me is things like I can go in and mute individual notes inside a region in Logic if I want to just test turning off a few notes that I am playing with.

There's been one or two times where I tried using the Mute tool on a MIDI note because it just "felt" like something I should be able to do. It would be a lot quicker when trying variations of ideas to mute and unmute rather than duplicate takes and edit or whatever alternate method.

grimepoch wrote: The thing is, the simple solution might be right there and you don't see if. For instance. If I want to create another MIDI track for a multi-timbral instrument, I select the last track and go up to the menu and select "New with Same Channel Strip/Instrument". Creates a new MIDI track to start adding more for a multi-timbral instrument.

So got home, really excited about trying this out and, but after following your steps, I couldn't get it to work. Here's what I did:

I chose Track:New:Software Instrument

I then checked the Multi-Timbral box and then clicked create.

So now I have my two tracks, I clicked on the first and loaded Kontakt 3 through the Channel strip.

At this point both tracks are addressing two different MIDI channels (1&2), this was setup automatically by Logic.

Now following your instructions, I click on the last track, #2, and then select Track:New with Same Channel Strip/Instrument

So this third track is now showing, but its MIDI channel is the same as track 2, (Channel 2), so I select the track and change the MIDI channel in the channel strip to channel 3, well now it changes both Track 2 and Track 3 to MIDI channel 3!

So I now cringe, it's off to the environment to set it up correctly there, but for some reason the new track #3 doesn't show itself, not even when I chose All Objects.

Maybe I'm missing a step, or your forgot one crucial point, but this is not working. Normally if I need to add a multi-instrument track after the fact I need to create a new track, then go to the environment and change the "Inst" reference under Channel to whatever VI I want to associated with. I would rather just do this on the channel strip, but the Instrument option is greyed out next to Core Audio (Core Audio: Inst).

Anyway, I guess I'm in the minority for thinking this workflow is NOT logical. I still laugh sometimes even when I frustrated that the program is called Logic, but it's far from it. I know there are work arounds, and the environment thing for multis take less than a minute to do, just bugs me, as a designer myself I find poor/sloppy design annoying. Anyway, if you get a chance to test your process I'd be curious to know if I'm just missing a step.

Cheers,

-e