ProTools MIDI advantage..Embarrassed for MOTU/AppleCore MIDI

markwayne · Post by **markwayne** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 10:11 am

I have read your posts on this subject. I conclude that you should migrate to Protools this instant. Clearly DP is not for you. Your high speed life requires all that Protools can offer. Dont delay, make the switch today! Those artists and celebs you support deserve your maximun productivity. And think of all the time you will save not having to post to Unicornation complaining about the defects in DP.

DP is certainly a very capable program and this board is the best resource any software package I know of has ever been lucky enough to have. With that out of the way, I continue to be puzzled when public requests in this forum to improve an application are met with open hostility, sarcasm and even personal attacks. I had to re-read TDH's post to make sure I wasn't overlooking some nasty insults or something. He just sounds like a guy who's frustrated by the MIDI performance of DP and compares it to PT (which still handles MIDI natively even at the HD level). I realize that many negative posts here are more rants and slams against DP than constructive criticism. But I didn't get any of that from TDH's post.

If MOTU figures everyone's happy with the status quo, the status quo is what you'll get. I enjoy DP but I also use a number of other DAWs. I like the way DP does a lot of things. However, it's near the bottom of the pile when it comes to MIDI on my rig. It works, but it's not very solid for a program that began life as one of the great MIDI sequencers. This state of affairs is a shame and it should be addressed by MOTU and people should stand up in public and say as much. That's just communication.

Enlightened, self-interest tells me I should welcome any user with a legitimate complaint and encourage them to voice their concerns even if it's an issue I have never encountered. As each issue is addressed and/or resolved by MOTU, DP becomes a better and better application, and that only improves life for me as a DP user.

Wayne

MIDI Life Crisis · Post by **MIDI Life Crisis** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 10:40 am

markwayne wrote:[quote... this board is the best resource any software package I know of has ever been lucky enough to haveWayne

It is a great board, but as Yoda says: 'There is another...'

http://forum.makemusic.com/

That board is run by the mfg (MakeMusic - Finale). I believe you have to provide a serial number to register (it's been a while) and that would disuade (sp?) many. But the tech folks (particularly the quality control people) are frequent contributors with comments, advice, announcements, etc. The program gets slammed all the time, but in a constructive dialogue that frequently results in improvements with subsequent releases. MOTU watches this board, but no official participation. Jim wants to keep it that way, I think, but it would be welcome by some of us who find calling tech support difficult at times, and emailing is just a bad joke with as long as 3 weeks for a response. not really helpful in a deadline setting. But back to the thread.

I think part of why this thread got out of control is that the title made a few people a bit agitated. MIDI is not perfect in DP (nor any other app that I know). Much of this started in OS X and I still think CoreMIDI is to blame. The bugs in the OS have not been worked out yet IMO.

"Terrible Pro Tools advantage..Embarrassed for MOTU" is a bit over reaching and somewhat extreme, IMO. Perhaps phishing for a response? Well, it got one (or more). And considering the tone of the initial post, I am not surprised at the response. I.E. "What say you?"... Well, he asked and we responded. Resonant Alien may have hit the nail on the head early on: "With PTHD/TDM, you have $8000 PCI cards that are purpose-built for one thing - processing audio. Whether or not this or that feature works better in PT or not is moot..."

With audio processing taken away from the main processors, sure it can dedicate more time to MIDI. If what TMS wants/needs to do is that important to a user, than they SHOULD spend the extra few grand for PT hardware. That point seems to have been somewhat ignored and may be the basis for the issue at hand. For some of us, 6-8G's goes a long way and having to stop playback for a few seconds isn't THAT big a deal. Is it?

If you are that pressured by your clients, then perhaps they should be laying off the sauce (or powder) a bit...? I work under high pressure clients all the time as well. But a good score is worth a few extra seconds (again, IMO.)

tripit@earthlink.net · Thu Oct 12, 2006 10:45 am

toodamnhip wrote:
If I had Mr Motu in front of me, Id spank him on this one...

after having praiised him on many other things,,,..

lets not confuse my warranted criticiisms to lack of care or dedication and let's not defend EVERY thing negative said about DP..What I have said is true..period...It is stupid this problem exists..it is rediculous an audio platform like pro tools beats DP MIDI stability..end story

You pretty much nailed how I feel. Except my complaint is about other DP problems, but basically I feel like DP has slipped backwards in realibity.
It's seems every new release has more and more features, but even more and more problems. I wish they would stop adding features and just fix all the basic stuff that isn't working the way it should.
I too would spank Mr MOTU for many things of late.

pcm · Post by **pcm** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 11:23 am

I believe that very thing has been requested here on this board for several years now.

markwayne · Post by **markwayne** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 11:38 am

"Terrible Pro Tools advantage..Embarrassed for MOTU" is a bit over reaching and somewhat extreme, IMO. Perhaps phishing for a response?

I'll concede that point. Funny that by the time I finished reading each post I completely forgot the thread title which was, in all honesty, what got me curious in the first place.

With audio processing taken away from the main processors, sure it can dedicate more time to MIDI.

That would be fine if, when I ran DP in MIDI only mode, MIDI suddenly tightened up in DP. However, in my experience, DP's MIDI problems remain the same regardless of how many audio tracks I stuff into a project.

In fact, I'm very happy with audio in DP. It comes close to Logic in pure audio performance and I much prefer DP's interface for tracking. Of course, plug-in performance is another matter . . .

Glad to hear that about Finale. If I didn't already use Sibelius, that would be just the kind of information that would sway a purchase for notation software. It's a wonder that more companies don't realize that just the illusion of listening and caring goes a long way towards soothing people when they are having problems.

Wayne

MIDI Life Crisis · Post by **MIDI Life Crisis** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 12:05 pm

[quote="markwayne"Glad to hear that about Finale. If I didn't already use Sibelius, that would be just the kind of information that would sway a purchase for notation software.Wayne[/quote]

Actually, some folks do field Sibelius questions on the forum and just reading some issues might help. I just got off the phone with Makemusic tech support and was amazedat how fast and easy the solution to my problem. The tech guy said he doesn;t know how and when thie feature had changed and why it hasn't beenmade more of in the manual. Very hard to find. But now I am happily respacing the systems on a page by simply clicking in the middle and dragging to the new location. No margin settings to worry about for the most part.

I guess that is why I am not so concerned with DP at the moment and happy woith what I do. With close to 250,000 notes (not including articulations, expressions, etc) in my upcoming premieres, DP not handling MIDI on the fly is about as far away from my current work as you can get. Sorry if I'm a bit non-responsive to T'Man's 'pain' LOL

WSVP · Post by **WSVP** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 12:39 pm

the MIDI problems are INSANE! Remember the little alesis mmt8? Flawless MIDI from a little box with only 1/1000 (or less) of a g5's power!!!! This isn't about cost - it's just bad code.

Sorry, but I had a very different experience with this one. I had an MMT8 in fact I still have it (somewhere) and I must say in my opinion it was the most unstable piece of junk ever built. It used to lock up all the time erasing all the data. In fact it was because of the MMT8 "horror show" that I wound up buying a Mac SE (2 floppy drive only) and Performer 2.3. I have a few friends who also had very bad experiences with the MMT8.

I will say that the quality control at MOTU back in those days was immensely better than it is now.

toodamnhip · Post by **toodamnhip** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 4:31 pm

peterkgeelong wrote:toodamnhip

I have read your posts on this subject. I conclude that you should migrate to Protools this instant. Clearly DP is not for you. Your high speed life requires all that Protools can offer. Dont delay, make the switch today! Those artists and celebs you support deserve your maximun productivity. And think of all the time you will save not having to post to Unicornation complaining about the defects in DP. You deserve the best! Dont worry about those of us left using DP, we will struggle on regardless.

You see, your reaction is to me, childish. It is that old, if one valid point is made against DP, I must be a hater and a traitor. In the same sessions that I complain about, tomorrow, I am bringing pro tools files back to DP for pitch shifting and everyone on the project has been informed that DP pitching is so much easier compared to using Antares in PT that I will use DP. Of course, I didn;t tell them that it doesnt sound as good as Antares, which it doesn't. But for small adjustments, inside a mix, it is very convenient.

So don;t go over board on me dude. What I said is EFFIN TRUE!

It is embarrassing for once solid MIDI, simple MIDI basics, to be out on ANY prgram known for it;s MIDI.

Get me? Hear me? Can you think with this?

Because it IS true, and I call em like I see em..all programs have their problems..this is expected....

One does NOT expect a MIDI specialist program to NOT be able to do stable MIDI...

This incongruity needs to be bitched about, and it does not mean I need jump ship...stop over reacting

toodamnhip · Post by **toodamnhip** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 4:37 pm

bradycline wrote:Wouldn't the simple test be to have one of you who use DP as a PT front-end try toodamnhip's scenario? Then we will see what is the software and was is the PT gear.

I personally don't care about the result myself. I never work that way.

I am concerned about a recent post claiming 100s of VIs in Logic compared to less than 20 in DP. I am concerned that freezing is not so much a feature, but STILL a macro hack after a paid upgrade to 5. I am concerned that a program like (dare I say it?) Sonar has an incredibly wonderful freeze function (right click to unfreeze/unhide frozen tracks anyone?). Oh yeah, Sonar's new pitch editing goes light years beyond DP's MIDI-note style editing, (which I thought was pretty cool 2 years ago).

Of course I don't want a PC and I don't want Sonar etc. I am one of the lucky ones: DP always works great on my system, but still, it's hard not to feel like DP's "Best DAW of the Year" days are but a memory. Then again we did get some glossy freeware-esque VI's. . .

I read every day, but rarely post. Sorry for the non-helpful rant. Thanks to all of you who make the Unicorn such a great resource -- without your faithful efforts to explain, trouble-shoot, and document DP, MOTU would be sunk.

Hey guys, I don;t work with loops. I loop sections I am improving and cut and paste real time MIDI to get the best of the best throughout a part...not stoppiing for an instant.

You have to imagine being at capitol records, an ochestra waiting on a change, and having to work fast..or a video shoot the next morning and a production partner asking for changes , tons of them...this is pressure work flow..but, even when not uunder such pressure, DP coughing and sputtering when I paste simple MIDI is stupid.

Why stop everytime I want to move a few hi hat notes? I didn;t used to have to do such silly things...

toodamnhip · Post by **toodamnhip** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 4:40 pm

markwayne wrote:
I have read your posts on this subject. I conclude that you should migrate to Protools this instant. Clearly DP is not for you. Your high speed life requires all that Protools can offer. Dont delay, make the switch today! Those artists and celebs you support deserve your maximun productivity. And think of all the time you will save not having to post to Unicornation complaining about the defects in DP.
DP is certainly a very capable program and this board is the best resource any software package I know of has ever been lucky enough to have. With that out of the way, I continue to be puzzled when public requests in this forum to improve an application are met with open hostility, sarcasm and even personal attacks. I had to re-read TDH's post to make sure I wasn't overlooking some nasty insults or something. He just sounds like a guy who's frustrated by the MIDI performance of DP and compares it to PT (which still handles MIDI natively even at the HD level). I realize that many negative posts here are more rants and slams against DP than constructive criticism. But I didn't get any of that from TDH's post.

If MOTU figures everyone's happy with the status quo, the status quo is what you'll get. I enjoy DP but I also use a number of other DAWs. I like the way DP does a lot of things. However, it's near the bottom of the pile when it comes to MIDI on my rig. It works, but it's not very solid for a program that began life as one of the great MIDI sequencers. This state of affairs is a shame and it should be addressed by MOTU and people should stand up in public and say as much. That's just communication.

Enlightened, self-interest tells me I should welcome any user with a legitimate complaint and encourage them to voice their concerns even if it's an issue I have never encountered. As each issue is addressed and/or resolved by MOTU, DP becomes a better and better application, and that only improves life for me as a DP user.

Wayne

Thank you so much for understanding what I said and meant WAYNE...

I APPRECIATE IT and I grow tired of this paternal, protect DP at all costs, attack any criticism mentality. I always say how I love DP in many ways..but some people react and attack...well, then I have to set them straight and make em look a little dumb..lol

MIDI Life Crisis · Post by **MIDI Life Crisis** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 4:42 pm

toodamnhip wrote:
peterkgeelong wrote:toodamnhip

I have read your posts on this subject. I conclude that you should migrate to Protools this instant...You see, your reaction is to me, childish..

I'll jump in here as well. TooDamnHip is absoultley right in expecting a professional discourse on this board. While I don't think his claim has any validity for me in how I use DP, it clearly DOES have validity for him and some others. Fact is, many (myslef included) are unhappy with DP's MIDI performance in general. But I maintain it is the OS, not DP that is to blame. I also have similar issues with Finale, as well as FireWire issues that crop up; and printing issues; and communications issues, et al. So should I go to a PC? No "effin" way to quote T'Damn.

So getting back to the matter at hand, T'Damn: Just wondering if you have investigated the MIDI buffer as a cluprit? Funny thing, Garage Band lets you set a MIDI buffer which (in my case last year) was used system wide regardless of what anyprogram setting was. It was never a problem until I launched Garageband for theone and only time I did so (to try out the prog. Needless to say it was a waste of time. But could you MIDI buffer settings have gotten screwed up in DP? Do you have way to compare DP's MIDI buffer vs. P'Tools? Just a thought...

toodamnhip · Post by **toodamnhip** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 4:45 pm

MIDI Life Crisis wrote:
markwayne wrote:[quote... this board is the best resource any software package I know of has ever been lucky enough to haveWayne
It is a great board, but as Yoda says: 'There is another...'

http://forum.makemusic.com/

That board is run by the mfg (MakeMusic - Finale). I believe you have to provide a serial number to register (it's been a while) and that would disuade (sp?) many. But the tech folks (particularly the quality control people) are frequent contributors with comments, advice, announcements, etc. The program gets slammed all the time, but in a constructive dialogue that frequently results in improvements with subsequent releases. MOTU watches this board, but no official participation. Jim wants to keep it that way, I think, but it would be welcome by some of us who find calling tech support difficult at times, and emailing is just a bad joke with as long as 3 weeks for a response. not really helpful in a deadline setting. But back to the thread.

I think part of why this thread got out of control is that the title made a few people a bit agitated. MIDI is not perfect in DP (nor any other app that I know). Much of this started in OS X and I still think CoreMIDI is to blame. The bugs in the OS have not been worked out yet IMO.

"Terrible Pro Tools advantage..Embarrassed for MOTU" is a bit over reaching and somewhat extreme, IMO. Perhaps phishing for a response? Well, it got one (or more). And considering the tone of the initial post, I am not surprised at the response. I.E. "What say you?"... Well, he asked and we responded. Resonant Alien may have hit the nail on the head early on: "With PTHD/TDM, you have $8000 PCI cards that are purpose-built for one thing - processing audio. Whether or not this or that feature works better in PT or not is moot..."

With audio processing taken away from the main processors, sure it can dedicate more time to MIDI. If what TMS wants/needs to do is that important to a user, than they SHOULD spend the extra few grand for PT hardware. That point seems to have been somewhat ignored and may be the basis for the issue at hand. For some of us, 6-8G's goes a long way and having to stop playback for a few seconds isn't THAT big a deal. Is it?

If you are that pressured by your clients, then perhaps they should be laying off the sauce (or powder) a bit...? I work under high pressure clients all the time as well. But a good score is worth a few extra seconds (again, IMO.)

\\JUST for you..I have modified the title...But, I think it is smart to shake the trees once in awhile for a good enough "outrage"..don;t you?..The heated dialogue is good food for thought and shows MOTU the various feelings on all sides..just read this post

MIDI Life Crisis · Post by **MIDI Life Crisis** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 4:45 pm

toodamnhip wrote:...I grow tired of this paternal, protect DP at all costs, attack any criticism mentality. I always say how I love DP in many ways..but some people react and attack...well, then I have to set them straight and make em look a little dumb..lol

Totally agree. People treat their technology like it was their genitals. It's the music that counts. The technology is only a tool. Sort of like saying "your hammer is red? Damn, man. Red hammers can't drive nails. I have a shiney hammer and my nails go deeper than yours. That mentality should really go south (just not South CA please.)

toodamnhip · Post by **toodamnhip** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 4:53 pm

MIDI Life Crisis wrote:
toodamnhip wrote:
peterkgeelong wrote:toodamnhip

I have read your posts on this subject. I conclude that you should migrate to Protools this instant...You see, your reaction is to me, childish..
I'll jump in here as well. TooDamnHip is absoultley right in expecting a professional discourse on this board. While I don't think his claim has any validity for me in how I use DP, it clearly DOES have validity for him and some others. Fact is, many (myslef included) are unhappy with DP's MIDI performance in general. But I maintain it is the OS, not DP that is to blame. I also have similar issues with Finale, as well as FireWire issues that crop up; and printing issues; and communications issues, et al. So should I go to a PC? No "effin" way to quote T'Damn.

So getting back to the matter at hand, T'Damn: Just wondering if you have investigated the MIDI buffer as a cluprit? Funny thing, Garage Band lets you set a MIDI buffer which (in my case last year) was used system wide regardless of what anyprogram setting was. It was never a problem until I launched Garageband for theone and only time I did so (to try out the prog. Needless to say it was a waste of time. But could you MIDI buffer settings have gotten screwed up in DP? Do you have way to compare DP's MIDI buffer vs. P'Tools? Just a thought...

I too think it is the MAC OS..but I still think it is MOTU's job to figure it out so it works...

I noticed MIDI getting weird way back when first changing to usb..it is always the Mac OS...but some companies figure it out, and some don;t.

I don't know much about MIDI buffers..where do I find such a setting?

Frodo · Post by **Frodo** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 4:53 pm

There are a couple of angles to all this:

Many people here agree that there are some features not included with DP that they'd like to see

Not everyone agrees on what parameters are most important because everyone has a different workflow and different needs.

TDH's point was valid insofar as PT had a feature he liked and would like to see in DP. I think such features are perhaps more important to him-- and that alone makes it important.

Now, for someone else- working on the fly (whether it's touted as doable or not) is not as important, and that's valid, too.

For others, new features are entirely secondary to stability-- and there's nothing wrong with that either.

For some people, Consoles are the end of the world. For others they are of no consequence, yet Consoles takes up one of the longest chapters in the manual. What's important hinges almost entirely on who is using it and what their needs are.

Personally, I learn as much about DP by reading other people's feature requests, praises, and criticisms as I do from reading the manual and experimenting on my own. There's no harm in that as long as it's clear why a certain point is being made or why a certain feature might sorely missing in that person's view.

It does happen from time to time that an impression is left of one person beating up on another person's sacred cow, so to sepak, but that's why we come here: to lay it all out on the table-- and honesty is the quickest route to getting to the truth.

So T-David-H: keep on preaching, bro. It's not like we don't *know* you around here and understand where you're coming from. Perhaps if your comments had come from someone less familiar, the intent *might* have to be challenged.

I've got my complaints about DP, too, and they may be different from yours-- but that has nothing to do with having a lack of respect for your opinion. In fact, I agree with 99 44/100% of your posts. Further, I've had some of my opinions changed by the comments of others here. That's what a good forum is all about.