Audio Express - how to change bit rate?

[mikehalloran]

How are those MOTU sales coming, Mike?

to mikehalloran:

are you trying to induce me to buy another MOTU product after such a disappointing start?

Ok,I get it. You cannot read. There is no other explanation. I'll try again using little words but make them big.

You own a MOTU product.

This entitles you to download a free app.

You have tech support on that free app.

While solving that problem, using that free app, you might learn something.

Or not. I don't care.

[FMiguelez]

I heard Doris got these pointy new shoes that she wants to try out that arses don't like...

We'll see...

[seemebreakthis]

others tried to help? They gave some feedback that's all (and I thanked them too - at least I'm not the only one).
but the sad true is....there isn't any help coming here...only wishy washy justifications - logic is black and white you can't mess with it...

Mike suggested to read the manual...then he came with an answer?! and note the RTFM too - which looks the more ridiculous because it only adds to the confusion and no - pulling wools on one's eyes sure doesn't help - it's just another red herring, a desperate attempt to circle the square (I bet he works at Motu's marketing department).
Again you can't mess with logic for Mike hasn't provide any answer on why with a MOTU interface one can't change the bit resolution at will (unless one is in a Asio environment coupled with a DAW), while a Focusrite or Maudio or Edirol user can (so it's not a Windows issue - since these brands found a way and MOTU hasn't). Only we know that with a Motu AE we are stuck to 24bit?! Is that the answer we were expecting? Absolutely not...and if one needs only 16 bit? And what about all the sample rates...from windows I can only choose 44 and 48khz?

Apparently these oddity happens also on a Mac? - Still waiting for a confirmation...

Rest to consider if these issues are simply a question of "superficial labelling" (we can safely ignore the "16 bit" because we know the AE always work on 24 bit? or maybe some more serious issues - in fact, I've just read other posts in other forums which do suggest glitches and inconsistencies.

and no...this isn't a treat...just an invitation to come clear - then this forum isn't owned by Motu by I'm sure they come and read time to time (and yes about time to send a direct email).

Let me try to chip in... (I am just directly copying and pasting from my comments that I just wrote for another thread, but basically on the same question)

Here is an answer that will hopefully contain some actually useful info to you.

I have owned the 828mkII for years now. I am also an owner of an audio interface from another brand. So I know exactly what you are talking about (because I have another brand to compare 828mkII with). The short answer is to your question is - no.

Long answer - if you want to dig a bit deeper, refer to this article: https://www.sweetwater.com/sweetcare/ar ... e-drivers/

For Windows (modern ones anyway), two types of drivers are in play for audio interfaces - ASIO, and WDM.

ASIO is what a DAW uses to communicate directly with audio interfaces. You can refer to the article for more info. Basically like other manufacturers with products that support 24-bit, MOTU's driver for 828mkII supports 24-bit ASIO. So for instance when you fire up Cubase, you will have the option to output 24-bit 48KHz audio to your 828MKII.

WDM is what Windows OS uses to output sound from games, media player, and your everyday programs etc. And for MOTU, no, of all these years I've owned the 828mkII, they have never released any driver that has 24-bit WDM support. My other brand (TC Electronic) on the other hand has drivers that support WDM 24-bit, so that option is available in Win10 (or in your case Win7) sound manager.

Hope this helps.

----

(So yeah I am with you alexsye, MOTU seems to be too lazy to add 24-bit WDM driver support to their products, period)
(and no bold text required when you post something with actual content )

[mikehalloran]

For Windows (modern ones anyway), two types of drivers are in play for audio interfaces - ASIO, and WDM.

ASIO is what a DAW uses to communicate directly with audio interfaces. You can refer to the article for more info. Basically like other manufacturers with products that support 24-bit, MOTU's driver for 828mkII supports 24-bit ASIO. So for instance when you fire up Cubase, you will have the option to output 24-bit 48KHz audio to your 828MKII.

WDM is what Windows OS uses to output sound from games, media player, and your everyday programs etc. And for MOTU, no, of all these years I've owned the 828mkII, they have never released any driver that has 24-bit WDM support. My other brand (TC Electronic) on the other hand has drivers that support WDM 24-bit, so that option is available in Win10 (or in your case Win7) sound manager.

Hope this helps.

----

(So yeah I am with you alexsye, MOTU seems to be too lazy to add 24-bit WDM driver support to their products, period)
(and no bold text required when you post something with actual content )

That. Thanks for chiming in.

In addition, there are different ASIO drivers available. There are posts in other forums that read "xxxx" doesn't support (3rd party ASIO driver here). Why not, when will they…? and so-on.

I used to run into things like this when I supported Windows apps and API toolkits for companies I worked for about 15 years. Aside from reading off the list of what we did (Windows as it came from Microsoft) and didn't (pretty much anything else) support, wasn't much I could do.

[CharlzS]

Going out on a limb here, but I think the 15+ year old MOTU drivers were written to the WASAPI Windows spec to support multichannel audio streams. That might explain the limitations. Regardless, the ASIO drivers are good for everything your DAW can throw at it. I'm still using a FW 828mkII on a modern Windows box at low buffers with the occasional playback drop out, but nothing serious.

[James Steele]

Regardless, the ASIO drivers are good for everything your DAW can throw at it. I'm still using a FW 828mkII on a modern Windows box at low buffers with the occasional playback drop out, but nothing serious.

I think that's some of the issue here. This board is geared toward users of Digital Performer and MOTU hardware IN THE CONTEXT OF USING IT WITH DIGITAL PERFORMER... aka a DAW. So questions about general music playback from other apps aren't quite something many of us (mostly Mac users) are able to solve. May be best to just not suggest anything in that case.

[seemebreakthis]

Going out on a limb here, but I think the 15+ year old MOTU drivers were written to the WASAPI Windows spec to support multichannel audio streams. That might explain the limitations. Regardless, the ASIO drivers are good for everything your DAW can throw at it. I'm still using a FW 828mkII on a modern Windows box at low buffers with the occasional playback drop out, but nothing serious.

This could very well be the reason. Comparing it against my TC Electronic gear once again, only MOTU shows all of its channels in Windows sound manager. TC does it by having a menu within its own setup program to define where the WDM audio stream goes to.

For what it is worth, this 16-bit limitation has never bothered me too much. When I do serious music work I use my DAW anyway. And am I really able to identify conspicuous differences between 16 and 24 bit when I am causally playing computer games or listening to music? Not really.... (Granted I have been using my new audio interface for years now, and it does support 24-bit... But I really don't recall noticing any difference)

[HCMarkus]

seemebreakthis' comment is well-taken... 24 bit recording is essential for the headroom it provides. Playback of audio is another story; who needs 24 bit on playback for video games or other casual uses?

[mikehalloran]

From the SOS review of te 1st gen 828

MOTU's 828 answers that need and is designed to work with any Mac or PC audio software that supports ASIO 2 drivers and that runs on a computer with IEEE 1394 connectivity. MOTU's own software, such as Digital Performer, bypasses ASIO and talks to the interface directly, though a control panel providing the same options is used to set the interface parameters within other ASIO-compatible software.

https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/motu-828

[CharlzS]

From the SOS review of te 1st gen 828

MOTU's 828 answers that need and is designed to work with any Mac or PC audio software that supports ASIO 2 drivers and that runs on a computer with IEEE 1394 connectivity. MOTU's own software, such as Digital Performer, bypasses ASIO and talks to the interface directly, though a control panel providing the same options is used to set the interface parameters within other ASIO-compatible software.

https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/motu-828

Sherman, set the wayback. That reference is ASIO drivers on a Mac running OS9. That all went away with OSX Core Audio on the Mac and DP for Windows came way, way later using ASIO or Windows Audio as the drivers - no talking to the interface directly.

[alexsye]

wow...so many replies about this thread - appreciate the effort...
Still, no one has really nailed down the essence of this problem - so, I'll give the few final touches myself in this message, as a gesture, as I've reached to the conclusion that Motu's drivers for windows are substandard compared to the competition, so I've listed the Audio Express for sale (and enjoying my brand new FocusRite 8i6).

Today, after investigating a bit more about Wasapi - I've stumbled into this interesting thread:
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Wasapi-vs-asi ... 93308.aspx

I copy and paste an interesting message from the discussion (message in question limited by "******************":
***************************************************************************************************************
There are three reasons people tend to recommend ASIO drivers:

1) It is in nearly every case a guaranteed bit perfect delivery. No resampling or anything like that. That is not guaranteed to the same extent in other driver models necessarily

2) Many pro cards have good ASIO drivers and bad WDM drivers. They focus on ASIO since that's what most pro software likes and the WDM drivers are an afterthought. So you get things like MOTU interfaces that can only do one stereo pair via WDM, but all I/O via ASIO.

3) Because that's what most pro software uses so they just assume that's what you have to use. The "that's what we've always used because that's what we've always used," thing.


However that doesn't mean that YOUR card has better ASIO drivers. If it doesn't WASAPI or WDM/KS may well be a better option. For a really well designed card, like a RME, it won't matter what you choose all drivers are equally good and it'll work flawlessly in either mode. For a lot of cards, there is one that works better than the other, and for many consumer cards, ASIO just isn't an option.

They are just different ways of talking to the card, so you use the one that is right.
****************************************************************************************************************
read it?
Each line of this message is pure gold - read it 2 or 3 times until it make sense to you (thanks to Sycraft) it is worth the whole lot of this discussion...note also the reference to Motu when citing bad drivers for Windows - he doesn't mention Focusrite or Maudio or else but Motu! Note also the RME comment. This guy is spot on.

Then, as another kind gesture - since someone wanted to open another can of worms related to the utility of 24bit v 16bit in terms of audio appreciation - like saying...it doesn't really matter?!
During my Audio Engineering course (15 odd years ago) I had the chance to determining first hand about the audible differences when listening 16bit v 24bit or even 32bit audio - it does matter especially if you have the right hardware - and you don't need to spend thousands to hear the difference a good quality mid range Beyerdynamic or Sennheiser headphones would do.
Personally, when listening to a 24bit audio the dynamic is creamier smoother - the high frequencies (hi-hats release in particular) sounds crispier and smoother (no antialiasing) there is more room for each frequency to "breath" into each own slot (not crammed together with other sounds/instruments) because the dynamic range is wider (this is what 24bit does). Even if the Bit resolution is directly related to amplitude - but indirectly affect also the frequency response (which is directly covered by the sampling rate) but the 2 (sampling rate and bit resolution) work in synergy to define the audio quality - to say 16bit and 44khz is all you need is wrong in numerical/technical terms and at most it represent a subjective statement if you don't care or never really bothered to check (mind you some prefer the grunginess of 8 bits too - lofi).

Now, there are plentiful of websites where people can download 24bit or other types of HiRes Audio (DSD, 32bit and others) - and these are becoming more and more popular - there must be a reason for it...now download a few 24bit tracks and compare them to the 16bit version - if you don't hear any difference blame it on your Motu inability to address the 24bit to Windows WDM or Wasapi drivers or else load these tracks on your DAW and use the Asio drivers!! silly as it sounds this is the solution according to Motu's design? (not very practical is it?).

Another final nail to the coffin...
I've experimented with a Mac recently (my main PC is a Windows) - all the other audio interfaces I have at the moment (FocusRite 8i6, Edirol UA 4-FX, MAudio Audiophile 192) do show all the available sample rates and bit resolutions declared on the specs on both Windows and Mac - so if the Audiophile offers 32bit and 192khz on Windows it does also offer the same on a Mac (as expected because the hardware is the same). The Motu Audio Express instead shows only 16bit and 44khz and 48khz on Windows, while on Mac it shows all the available sample frequencies on the specs, so up to 96khz (and only 16bit...at least in this sad limitation is consistent). So why does the Motu show different options on a Mac? BAD DRIVERS!!...it is unacceptable that the hardware capabilities of an audio interface are limited by the drivers...and if anyone doesn't understand the implications then re-read the message until it make sense.

Case closed (amen).