Anyone summing to mix?

[waxman]

Over on GS they had a blind test shootout and it was hard to tell the difference for most... all of the "pro" engineers picked ITB when they could swear that it was summing used and thought it was a rigged.. I think if your good your good regardless of what you have to sum to whether it's ITB or to whatever. IMO, it's what goes IN is what matters... not what's on the out. When performers go into a world class studio and see the Neve or SSL they get pumped up and perform better (everyone else does too) and when they see a computer sitting on a desk, they don't get that hyped, and their performances and everyone else's do too... it's all psychological in perspective... if you feel you mix better with certain tools so be it. When doing ITB mixes we all have to remember that the headroom physics are different and you can't be slamming the hell out of the buss or we'll loose the definition and imaging that the summing devices are more forgiving to... that's all that's going on here.

I appreciate the debate. However for this thread I would just like to hear who is summing and maybe some of the things they are finding out about it. For me it is not an either or issue. I recently got the Dangerous Dbox. The difference is quite noticeable. blind shootouts using tape and pro-tools and pros miss it. Leave me where I am... stay in bed float up stream...

[kwiz]

Waxman, to my ears, my mixes sound a bit more fuller and have more depth when I sum otb.
I never set my stems or master fader (if mixing itb) higher than -4 and have great results with my sound. I found out years ago that even if I kept my master fader at 0db and slapped a limiter on it to catch the peaks, my mixes still had somewhat of a narrow sound to them.
I compared my 24 bit itb mixes with mixes that I'd done in the past on 16 bit DA-88's and an old Tascam M3200 console and they were almost night and day when it came to stereo imaging and depth. Even with the upgrade to Apogee converters and a Big Ben masterclock I still lacked some of the depth. My sound did improve with the upgrade but it was missing something. Once I started to stem out my mixes, (first 4 stereo, now 8 stereo) my mixes sounded the way they used to, matter of fact even better because of learning new tricks from people like you in this forum and from engineers that I know and respect.

The itb/otb debate will go on forever, but to my ears, otb is the way to go.

[n2mpujack]

Summing in TL Audio Ebony Series A4 - Class A and switchable tube stage

Outputting summed mix into Ebony Series A2 Stereo Processor - Class A compression and eq plus switchable tube stage.

and then into line in of Peach Audio m196se Tube pre - best mic pre and Di I've ever heard.

Re-converted in Apogee Rosetta 200. Occasionally burnt in real time to stand alone burner.

What I'm really liking about the A4 Summer is the pan pot on each of the 16 channels - massive improvement to panning in DP. A2 compression and eq used only very sparingly, 2:1 and slight colour. Tube stages on A2 and A4 used only sometimes - valve goodness coming mostly from the Peach Audio device.

It's the best of both worlds - plugs and automation ITB, panning, summing and master buss compression/eq OTB. Next hardware buy is DA16X as dedicated feed to A4.

Dave:
Googled Peach Audio and found a link to their site. However when I click on the link a blank page comes up. Tried in both Firefox 3.5.7 and the latest version of Safari - no joy. Have they gone bye-bye?

[davedempsey]

Dave:
Googled Peach Audio and found a link to their site. However when I click on the link a blank page comes up. Tried in both Firefox 3.5.7 and the latest version of Safari - no joy. Have they gone bye-bye?

David Peach has ceased his boutique audio manufacturing activities and is now working full time designing a range of processors for Peter Freedman at Rode Microphones. Stage one, being the power supply for use in all models, is complete and the noise figures are very impressive. The marriage of Peach's design principles and audio quality with the Rode manufacturing capability will result in a range of products of an extremely high standard at a price point that will make it available to many more customers. Peach Audio was a one man show - David designed and made those devices on his own. It used to take him 2 weeks to make one of those mic pres - those are not pots on the front - they're switches with individual wiring harnesses - it became an unsustainable business. Roll out of the new product range will begin later this year.

[waxman]

Waxman, to my ears, my mixes sound a bit more fuller and have more depth when I sum otb.
I never set my stems or master fader (if mixing itb) higher than -4 and have great results with my sound. I found out years ago that even if I kept my master fader at 0db and slapped a limiter on it to catch the peaks, my mixes still had somewhat of a narrow sound to them.
I compared my 24 bit itb mixes with mixes that I'd done in the past on 16 bit DA-88's and an old Tascam M3200 console and they were almost night and day when it came to stereo imaging and depth. Even with the upgrade to Apogee converters and a Big Ben masterclock I still lacked some of the depth. My sound did improve with the upgrade but it was missing something. Once I started to stem out my mixes, (first 4 stereo, now 8 stereo) my mixes sounded the way they used to, matter of fact even better because of learning new tricks from people like you in this forum and from engineers that I know and respect.

The itb/otb debate will go on forever, but to my ears, otb is the way to go.

Thanks Kwiz,

This is wonderful and very helpful. I started this OTB mixing in the middle of a project along with a new pair of Event Opal monitors so it has taken a couple weeks to find my way back to home. Better late then later...

The tech at Dangerous said the Dbox recommended sum level knob is between 10-2 o-clock during 2 trk mix down. I think he said 12 o-clock is supposed to be 0? My 2 track mix is ending up when transferred to Peak at -4 to -5. Where do you end up having your mix level to 2trk. Do you mix back to DP or another box?

I set the stem fader to 0 on the drums and bass and the rest end up in the -5 to -7 range because I get the drum vocal and bass mix first then bring in the other instruments around that. Not knowing I would be doing this to begin with some of my instrument tracks are a bit hot so that is why I had to pull down the master stem of 2,3,4. So thank you I will set drums/bass and the rest to -4.

I am metering using the meters in DP7 which does not get above -3. Anyway thanks again this is really helpful to zero in on getting the most of OTB mixing. As for the debate...

The debate is over for me I am all in.... Next step is a box that does more stems...

[mesaken]

I've been using a couple of SPL Mixdream 2384s since I removed my console and remodeled the control room. You can link three (or maybe four) units of 16 channels each according to SPL before you run into sonic issues.

The 2384s have incredible headroom with balanced outs, channel inserts, and master inserts. There's also mutes, SPL's Stereo Expander, which is phenomenal, a transformer, and a limiter, which is good in moderation. I use the balanced outs, which come directly off the BLA(motu) HD192s. to feed my Furman HR-16 headphone system when tracking.

They've been in use for almost three years with no problems. There's a cheaper version that just sums 16 channels. If you wanna use any outboard analog stuff then the 2384 is the one to get.

I've don't mix much ITB although I've heard some great ITB mixes. I'm sold on the SPLs and I'm not looking for anything else.

[kwiz]

Thanks Kwiz,

This is wonderful and very helpful. I started this OTB mixing in the middle of a project along with a new pair of Event Opal monitors so it has taken a couple weeks to find my way back to home. Better late then later...

The tech at Dangerous said the Dbox recommended sum level knob is between 10-2 o-clock during 2 trk mix down. I think he said 12 o-clock is supposed to be 0? My 2 track mix is ending up when transferred to Peak at -4 to -5. Where do you end up having your mix level to 2trk. Do you mix back to DP or another box?

I set the stem fader to 0 on the drums and bass and the rest end up in the -5 to -7 range because I get the drum vocal and bass mix first then bring in the other instruments around that. Not knowing I would be doing this to begin with some of my instrument tracks are a bit hot so that is why I had to pull down the master stem of 2,3,4. So thank you I will set drums/bass and the rest to -4.

I am metering using the meters in DP7 which does not get above -3. Anyway thanks again this is really helpful to zero in on getting the most of OTB mixing. As for the debate...

The debate is over for me I am all in.... Next step is a box that does more stems...


[/quote]


Opals, very cool. I've heard great things about those monitors and I'm suppose to be receiving a pair from Event in a couple of weeks to audition while on the road.

When I'm using the LT I have the level set at 3 oclock but from the LT I patch into a Waves L2 (hardware version) and then patch digitally from the L2 to an Alesis Masterlink for the 2 track mix. I do pretty much the same when summing from my console as well.

[waxman]

Hi Kwiz,

The tech at Dangerous music told me to push the faders on DP7 as hot as possible into the Dbox. So I am going to try a mix both ways -4 and 0. I wonder if it has something to do with the different hardware why your sound is better at -4 or do you think it is a DP7 issue?

thanks

[kwiz]

Waxman,

When I used to mix ITB I would set my master at 0db and slap on a limiter to catch the overs.
The problem that I always ran into was my stereo field always sounded narrow.
This probably had to do with my old school way of slamming the mix bus like I would do on an ssl going to tape to achieve mild tape compression. None the less, I never was completely satisfied with that sound.
I read either here or on some other forum that digital summing had some sort of limitations due to the binary number crunching that was done with all the tracks and plugins that one might use in a mix. With that said I started experimenting with stemming back in DP3xx days on my old Tascam M3200. I read that if you backed down on your master bus levels you would leave more headroom for transients. I applied that technique to my stem channels first at -6, but then moved to -4 and have had great results ever since. I'll give 0db a chance again the next time I use the LT for summing and see if it makes a difference but when I sum in the DM4800, I always keep the levels modest.

[waxman]

Waxman,

When I used to mix ITB I would set my master at 0db and slap on a limiter to catch the overs.
The problem that I always ran into was my stereo field always sounded narrow.
This probably had to do with my old school way of slamming the mix bus like I would do on an ssl going to tape to achieve mild tape compression. None the less, I never was completely satisfied with that sound.
I read either here or on some other forum that digital summing had some sort of limitations due to the binary number crunching that was done with all the tracks and plugins that one might use in a mix. With that said I started experimenting with stemming back in DP3xx days on my old Tascam M3200. I read that if you backed down on your master bus levels you would leave more headroom for transients. I applied that technique to my stem channels first at -6, but then moved to -4 and have had great results ever since. I'll give 0db a chance again the next time I use the LT for summing and see if it makes a difference but when I sum in the DM4800, I always keep the levels modest.

AHA.... that makes sense. That is really good to know what happens ITB may happen summing. I have always noticed transients are the first thing to go in the digital realm. I used to have a Trident desk and an Otari 24 track. I would bias at +9 slam the tapes and all it did was make it sound better.

Some have said to automate the kick and snare as the whole band gets roaring in the final choruses. What is interesting is if you start playback at the final choruses the drums magically appear again. It seems as the number crunching gets more overloaded the transients start to go. So it is good to know that may happen with summing.

I moved all my stems to -3 on a song I started mixing today. The imaging on the Opals is amazing but since I got them at the same time as the dbox I can't tell how much to attribute to dbox. When I get some time I am going to just hook them up direct to the ensemble and check it out. But I can say this set up is such a pleasure to mix on. Tonight I had a vocalist and I could hear a whole new quality in her voice. I just kept feeling like it was hearing in techni-color or something. I would never have thought it could make so much difference.

Thanks for the knowledge kwiz...

[Splinter]

Allen Sides is doing a promo for Tascam and says 90% of the "hits" are NOT mastered ITB.

Only partially true. If I had a handbuilt, $30,000 analog EQ, I'd go OTB too, but I doubt very few are mastering to tape these days. I've worked with a handful of top MEs and none master to tape, but they definitely use analog sweetening and processing, not exclusively, but as part of the chain.

[Splinter]

I don't mix OTB, so take my thoughts with a grain of salt, but here's my thoughts on gain staging.

First off, track at -18 to -12dBV. You are still using 22 of the 24 bits - a 132dB range - and leaving plenty of headroom for the analog input on your A to D and the channel, aux, and summing processing for your mixes. This has been a big part of what has made ITB mixing sound flat and losing the transients you are talking about. There's headroom to spare in digital recordings, but many are locked into the "more is better" mentality. Not so.

Second, before you start your mix, set your master or auxes to "0." Here's why: If you pull them down at the start of the mix you will tend to drive your channel faders harder thus creating more opportunity for signal processing distortion. DP uses all floating point summing and processing, so clipping is not a problem except on output, but plug-ins are a different issue. Depending on their internal processing resolution, they can easily crush your sound and kill your transients. This is why 64bit plugs sound so much better - more open and with more depth.

If you keep your record levels in the range I mentioned, your channel faders low, and your fader at "0," you will not push your mixes and still maintain a -10 to -6dBV output perfect for mastering. In working with a summer, your stems would output even lower because you have much less routed to each stem than you would to a stereo mix, but still a great output level for your summing box.

Bottomline: If you're having to trim your stems, or master fader for that matter, your gainstage is out of wack. The simple solution is to turn up your monitors so you mix lighter and don't compensate at the channel fader.

[jimagine]

Just a quick thought on the philosophy of ITB vs OTB. A few years ago I was involved in a great test called the 3D Audio Listening Party that was hosted at a top mastering studio and compared everything from the industry's best pres and channel strips including Neve and Focusrite, Grace and Manley all the way down to Mackie consoles and $100. Musician's Friend specials. Part of the experiment was to test the average and expert ears/judgement regarding tube vs solid state signal paths as well as the true audio value of the highest end outboard gear.

This was a true blind test, very tightly controlled with people like Dan Kennedy of Great River, George Massenburg of GML, John LaGrou of Millennia Media, Greg Mackie of Mackie Systems, and Tim Farrant of Buzz Audio, NZ. Dan Kennedy of Great River assisted in supervising the testing and level matching the units. The initial test featured a Nashville session player on acoustic guitar and a second take with a session vocalist, each tracked through the 30 plus systems. The test was pressed to CD for others to do their own blind test and then reference the enclosed sheet of gear to see what they picked.

Bottom line - even the manufacturers themselves couldn't pick out the sound of their own gear, nor could the experts accurately choose between tube and digital. There was a consistent irregularity in one persons "top five" to the next, with many pros choosing inexpensive signal paths over the most expensive. Often inputs like those on the Makie 16 channel ranked at the top.

Just sayin.

[davedempsey]

..and most of my life I've been of the understanding that blind people have improved hearing by way of compensation..maybe I didn't read that correctly...should have my eyes checked

[newrigel]

I don't mix OTB, so take my thoughts with a grain of salt, but here's my thoughts on gain staging.

First off, track at -18 to -12dBV. You are still using 22 of the 24 bits - a 132dB range - and leaving plenty of headroom for the analog input on your A to D and the channel, aux, and summing processing for your mixes. This has been a big part of what has made ITB mixing sound flat and losing the transients you are talking about. There's headroom to spare in digital recordings, but many are locked into the "more is better" mentality. Not so.

Second, before you start your mix, set your master or auxes to "0." Here's why: If you pull them down at the start of the mix you will tend to drive your channel faders harder thus creating more opportunity for signal processing distortion. DP uses all floating point summing and processing, so clipping is not a problem except on output, but plug-ins are a different issue. Depending on their internal processing resolution, they can easily crush your sound and kill your transients. This is why 64bit plugs sound so much better - more open and with more depth.

If you keep your record levels in the range I mentioned, your channel faders low, and your fader at "0," you will not push your mixes and still maintain a -10 to -6dBV output perfect for mastering. In working with a summer, your stems would output even lower because you have much less routed to each stem than you would to a stereo mix, but still a great output level for your summing box.

Bottomline: If you're having to trim your stems, or master fader for that matter, your gainstage is out of wack. The simple solution is to turn up your monitors so you mix lighter and don't compensate at the channel fader.

I agree. People slam the hell out of the buss on a DAW so the imaging gets smeared and too congested. Mixing is an art and nothing is going to (just because you use it) sound better unless the person running it is just really reckless with their gain staging. Analog is way more forgiving IMO so yes, don't slam the buss...
In theory, I'm @ 24 bit 48K... it should be awesome... na, just because I'm using that capability, I still have to be there with my techniques and skills as an engineer so it's a combination of things not just one. Like I said, I used summing and it's a cool added luxury but it didn't (IMO) add anything to my mixes that wasn't already there... but everyone is different.