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It looks like game changer to me - DP's professional user base is not really in doubt as Record Reason will not really affect them, and DP7 might help (those guitar amp sims are way overdue) - BUT - this new Propellerhead product will appeal to new starters and guitar players - Garageband is for sometime users of music software (I love the simplicity) - but DP does not look like an obvious start up choice for the Apple user . Are there enough pro users of DP to keep it viable in an incredibly competitive market ? I hope DP survives as more than a niche pro product - but Propellerhead have made it difficult - Reason is rock solid and cpu friendly and I have no doubt Record will be the same - Propellerhead have kept their nerve and resisted audio until they were absolutely ready. And it works on PC's and Apple - an advantage DP does not have. I have sympathy with those who say it might not have enough pro qualities but for the majority of new users that won't be a problem - and if the basic package is good the need for external plug ins becomes less important.

I daresay I will have both DP7 and Record/Reason in the future - but it will be a battle in the market place....

We'll certainly see? Is there a Record/Reason online forum where I can go and post about how great DP is?

Guitar Gaz wrote:It looks like game changer to me

It's Garageband with a better mixer. But if it limits you to the preset FX, it's lock-in hell, far worse than Garageband (where you can at least run third party AU's). Bottom line, to me this looks like a mid-market app between starter apps like Garageband and high-end apps like DP/Logic/PT.

Game changer? Sorry, but I don't see this as revolutionary.

buddhabelly wrote:of course you can. That would be pretty dense if you couldn't. You can do it with any MIDI controller. But you can also simple use the velocity tool in the piano roll and click any note and drag up or down to change the velocity. A little yellow help tag will pop up next to the cursor with the amount you're changing as well as the absolute value, and other info. Then there's the transform window that you can do any number of transforms to data.

You're going to have to show me this. I've never found where I can draw a Velocity phrase in Logic as I can in DP, directly under the notes they affect.

Now, answer me a question? Is there the equivalent of Quick Automation controller in DP? In logic I can quickly assign say the mod wheel on my keyboard to be the quick automation controller. Then, I can write automation for whatever parameter is active in the sequence. Such a thing in DP?

Not sure what you mean. Of course you can attach a MIDI controller to any fader, and multiple controllers to multiple faders. You can set up Custom Consoles to be at the ready when you want to play Continuous Controller's data using a MIDI controller that only generates, say ModWheel (#1). These can be altered to produce any controller in a few seconds. I play in most automation of the expressive type, and draw in others.

In Line Mode in the MIDI Graphic Editing Window in DP, just dragging around control points (which you create merely by clicking on a controller line) generates all the MIDI Continuous Data it needs to create ramps, curves, or whatever. In most cases it's faster than playing it in. Only expressive controllers like CC#11, #2, or #7 need to be played in to get the full benefit of expression. These can usually be played directly by any MIDI controller, but if you only have a ModWheel, then the Custom Console would be the answer as a relay between one type and another.

I hope I've made sense, but honestly I'm not sure I understand what a Quick Automation Controller is for. I've never found anything in DP's architecture slowing me down in the realm of continuous data. In fact, I find it to be exceptionally powerful, fast, and precise.

Shooshie

Now that we have hijacked a hijacking thread.

In logic, it's usually easier to automate plugs and VIs by accessing the host automation, instead of MIDI ccs. So, I enable the automation track of the parameter to automate and then learn whatever controller I want. This is different than MIDI learn because it writes host automation data to the track, instead of MIDI CCs to the MIDI region. Useful for that.

I'm aware of consoles and assignments to the mixer, just never found the quick automation equivalent in DP.

Honestly, I really want DPs chunks and multiple sequences per song as I'm about to jump in head first into scoring, and film scoring tools, as we all know, are awesome in DP.

Anyways, I'll post screenshots when I get home. Again, Logic is missing some drawing tools as far as say, reshaping the CC data like you get with DP, say smoothing out data with a parabola for example. But for basic ramps, lines etc it's there.

You can also do it in the hyper editor. There is a bar for each note for velocity. You can draw a ramp using the line tool for crescendo, etc, or edit each individually.

Shooshie wrote:

buddhabelly wrote:of course you can. That would be pretty dense if you couldn't. You can do it with any MIDI controller. But you can also simple use the velocity tool in the piano roll and click any note and drag up or down to change the velocity. A little yellow help tag will pop up next to the cursor with the amount you're changing as well as the absolute value, and other info. Then there's the transform window that you can do any number of transforms to data.

You're going to have to show me this. I've never found where I can draw a Velocity phrase in Logic as I can in DP, directly under the notes they affect.

Now, answer me a question? Is there the equivalent of Quick Automation controller in DP? In logic I can quickly assign say the mod wheel on my keyboard to be the quick automation controller. Then, I can write automation for whatever parameter is active in the sequence. Such a thing in DP?

Not sure what you mean. Of course you can attach a MIDI controller to any fader, and multiple controllers to multiple faders. You can set up Custom Consoles to be at the ready when you want to play Continuous Controller's data using a MIDI controller that only generates, say ModWheel (#1). These can be altered to produce any controller in a few seconds. I play in most automation of the expressive type, and draw in others.

In Line Mode in the MIDI Graphic Editing Window in DP, just dragging around control points (which you create merely by clicking on a controller line) generates all the MIDI Continuous Data it needs to create ramps, curves, or whatever. In most cases it's faster than playing it in. Only expressive controllers like CC#11, #2, or #7 need to be played in to get the full benefit of expression. These can usually be played directly by any MIDI controller, but if you only have a ModWheel, then the Custom Console would be the answer as a relay between one type and another.

I hope I've made sense, but honestly I'm not sure I understand what a Quick Automation Controller is for. I've never found anything in DP's architecture slowing me down in the realm of continuous data. In fact, I find it to be exceptionally powerful, fast, and precise.

Shooshie

buddhabelly wrote:(...)
In logic, it's usually easier to automate plugs and VIs by accessing the host automation, instead of MIDI ccs. So, I enable the automation track of the parameter to automate and then learn whatever controller I want. This is different than MIDI learn because it writes host automation data to the track, instead of MIDI CCs to the MIDI region. Useful for that.

I'm aware of consoles and assignments to the mixer, just never found the quick automation equivalent in DP.

Not sure if I understand, but you can use host automation instead of MIDI to automate pretty much any plug-in or VI in DP, the same way you automate, say, volume in an audio track. Easy as pie and implemented a long time ago. Maybe I misunderstand?

Let me try to make it clearer. There is a command to learn a MIDI controller from your keyboard. For my example I'm using the mod wheel. You set this to be the quick automation controller, allowing you to 'perform' the host automation using the mod wheel on your keyboard. It would be great in DP for plugs that don't support MIDI learn for example.

Here is the entry in the logic manual:

Using Automation Quick Access
The Automation Quick Access feature makes track automation extremely fast and simple if you only have one hardware MIDI controller available (one fader on your MIDI keyboard, or maybe just the modulation wheel). You can use this single hardware controller to access (and automate) the currently active automation parameter of the selected track in the Arrange window.

Kubi wrote:

buddhabelly wrote:(...)
In logic, it's usually easier to automate plugs and VIs by accessing the host automation, instead of MIDI ccs. So, I enable the automation track of the parameter to automate and then learn whatever controller I want. This is different than MIDI learn because it writes host automation data to the track, instead of MIDI CCs to the MIDI region. Useful for that.

I'm aware of consoles and assignments to the mixer, just never found the quick automation equivalent in DP.

Not sure if I understand, but you can use host automation instead of MIDI to automate pretty much any plug-in or VI in DP, the same way you automate, say, volume in an audio track. Easy as pie and implemented a long time ago. Maybe I misunderstand?

1. Open Piano Roll.
2. Click the controller edit button



3. Click the drop down menu to choose the controller you wish to edit.


4. Draw a line how you want it to go.


5.Done!



Is this what you're talking about? While editing, a black line will appear that will show you the alignment of a control node relative to the note in the piano roll. Also, as you can see a help tag pops up with the relevant info.

Yes, I'm familiar with the window and the way it works. I just opened Logic again in case there's something you're telling me that I just "don't get." But yes, I get it and always have. And no, it's honestly nothing like what I'm asking for. It's nothing at all like editing velocities (or other control parameters) in DP.

I wish it were; I might use Logic more often and learn its deeper features better. But the awkwardness of editing MIDI makes altering the simplest musical line too much of a "job" to sound natural.

That's the way I see it, anyway. Thanks for trying, though.

Shooshie

Then there is something I don't understand about what you're asking. Editing velocities in DP seems the same to me except for the added tools for drawing, like the parabolas, random ramps etc. I think Logic's transform window is they're answer for that, but it's not as direct as just drawing the shape.

Guess I'm not that advanced of a user for either since I don't get it. Oh well, I still get what I need done I guess.

James Steele wrote:We'll certainly see? Is there a Record/Reason online forum where I can go and post about how great DP is?

Yes there is and you are free to do so.

My comments were in response to the thread - I didn't start it - but I responded with my opinion about the new users and DP's position in that market - guitar amp sims only just arriving in DP7, virtual instruments only arriving in DP5 - a lag behind the market place which is dangerous for our future if Motu can not make the economics work as it means less future development - I have invested a lot of time in switching over from Opcode Vision (which disappeared due to economics as Gibson would have kept it going if it was viable). I do say that its a pro package and I hope in this market it can survive this sort of fierce competition. I really don't think I have done anything wrong in expressing this opinion which is not anti Motu.

My point is just that I have become so weary of this forum being dominated it seems by hand-wringing over the future of DP or MOTU and this DAW versus that DAW. But yet, even though I'm NOT a MOTU employee, I have very mixed emotions about people-- in general-- posting gushingly positive posts about and heaping laish praise on what might be considered DP's competition. I was sort of even surprised to see that we have something of a Logic tutorial in this thread now.

Basically, I'm seriously considering whether I want to narrow the focus of this forum to the USE OF DIGITAL PERFORMER instead of industry speculation and Comparative DAW Studies 101.

Guitar Gaz wrote: And it works on PC's and Apple - an advantage DP does not have.

I don't see that as an advantage at all!

PC's can't run OS X (unless you hack of course)... I can run windblows if I wanted to but why if I own a Mac? That's what stringent export functions are for... cross platform compatibility!
If MOTU ever ported DP to the PC (which will never happen) I'd drop it like a hot coal!

buddhabelly wrote:Then there is something I don't understand about what you're asking. Editing velocities in DP seems the same to me except for the added tools for drawing, like the parabolas, random ramps etc. I think Logic's transform window is they're answer for that, but it's not as direct as just drawing the shape.

Guess I'm not that advanced of a user for either since I don't get it. Oh well, I still get what I need done I guess.

Yes, our needs are different, and I think that's the problem with people making comparisons about their favorite DAWs. In the end, what matters is whether you get your work done without a lot of interruptions and troubleshooting. I have trouble making die-hard Logic fans understand my need for detailed velocity and controller shaping. Maybe it would help if I posted screenshots of what I do, and then it might make more sense.

Put simply: DP's capabilities in this regard put the competition to shame. Those who do not work at this level of detail don't see the difference, but it's night/day. I'm creating performances that ideally simulate actual players on real instruments: their breathing, their lip movements, their hand movements, the swing of a bowing arm. These are not simple adjustments or straight-line moves, though you can get away with a few lesser-detailed moves if they're surrounded by more realistic ones.

DP gives us the tools to record, edit, create and adjust those lines without sacrificing the detail. Though I'm still waiting to see evidence to the contrary, my current conclusion about Logic is that it simply does not make that easy. It can be done, but at a fraction of DP's efficiency.

Shooshie

PS: James, I think this 'Logic tutorial' was valuable, for once again it has confirmed DP's lead in this area. Logic just isn't in the ballpark with DP as regards phrasing large amounts of velocity or continuous data. I will post screenshots of what I do in DP when I get the chance. I have to find some good examples that really illustrate it, and that will only happen while I'm working in DP. At some point I'm going to make a movie of it so that people can see the differences in action. People who do not know the depths of DP do not understand WHY it's better, and comparisons like this one really do give us the opportunity to make that better understood.

James Steele wrote: Basically, I'm seriously considering whether I want to narrow the focus of this forum to the USE OF DIGITAL PERFORMER instead of industry speculation and Comparative DAW Studies 101.

Well if you have a section called Gripes, Petitions & Off Topic you are kind of inviting this sort of discussion - and we are all fairly cosmopolitan in the sense that we don't just use one piece of software i.e. DP and we have comparative opinions about them. Limit it by all means - its your choice. If people want to discuss other software they will until you come and bump it. Or you can just trust the forum members - trolls always reveal themselves or get bored in the end. As consumers of Motu products we feel a right to air some criticisms, constructive hopefully - if you don't want that on this forum (and its your choice) then fine limit it. I had no idea this was a big deal until your recent postings - this is a pretty good forum and trolls tend to stick out soon enough - I don't think they are enough to upset the Motu market position .