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toodamnhip wrote:Having been working intensively on Pro Tools again at a sister studio, I am embarrassed for MOTU that in Pro Tools, you can edit, copy and paste MIDI on the fly without glitching play back.

Although the MIDI is way more primitive in Pro Tools and there are wonderful advantages in DP, it is unacceptable to me that the MIDI is more stable, consistent and "un" glitching. It's like the devil having an advantage in the matters of morals...DP should be kicking Pro Tools asses in MIDI...

What say you?...

Try to copy and paste MIDI in DP on the fly, then try this in Pro Tools...then you'll feel my pain..lol...

The stability of Pro Tools MIDI over DP is an embarrassment..

Dave

BTW, the same is true with audio. You can do virtually anything with audio, including even time stretching a track while in play, and nothing will glitch. This is not merely a MIDI thing.

as a long time pro tools user I am annoyed that even when I just click the cursor on a different spot on the screen in DP it stutters and tracks mute and have to catch up. I can hit stop and paste, that's understandable, but when I just click on the screen it would be nice if it wouldn't fall apart.

then again, I can't overlook the THOUSANDS of dollars I pay for that privilege.

bb

the MIDI problems are INSANE! Remember the little alesis mmt8? Flawless MIDI from a little box with only 1/1000 (or less) of a g5's power!!!! This isn't about cost - it's just bad code.

zandurian wrote: - it's just bad code.

Huh??? Bit of an over reaction, especially in relation to the thread.

Resonant Alien wrote: The F1 is extremely fast, but you can't drive it anywhere but on the racetrack and you'll be hot as hell while doing it....but it will drive without ever stalling.

Well, actually Formula One cars stall really easily, due to the clutch set up they have. Just ask Nigel Mansell, who had his Williams stall as he slowed down to take one of the final corners when leading the final lap of the Canadian GP one year.

sorry, back to DP.

Mr_Clifford wrote:

Resonant Alien wrote: The F1 is extremely fast, but you can't drive it anywhere but on the racetrack and you'll be hot as hell while doing it....but it will drive without ever stalling.

Well, actually Formula One cars stall really easily, due to the clutch set up they have. Just ask Nigel Mansell, who had his Williams stall as he slowed down to take one of the final corners when leading the final lap of the Canadian GP one year.

sorry, back to DP.

I thought you *were* talking about DP!! LOL!!

My clutch stalls sometimes in QS and then I crash and burn!! j/k

pcm wrote:

toodamnhip wrote:Having been working intensively on Pro Tools again at a sister studio, I am embarrassed for MOTU that in Pro Tools, you can edit, copy and paste MIDI on the fly without glitching play back.

Although the MIDI is way more primitive in Pro Tools and there are wonderful advantages in DP, it is unacceptable to me that the MIDI is more stable, consistent and "un" glitching. It's like the devil having an advantage in the matters of morals...DP should be kicking Pro Tools asses in MIDI...

What say you?...

Try to copy and paste MIDI in DP on the fly, then try this in Pro Tools...then you'll feel my pain..lol...

The stability of Pro Tools MIDI over DP is an embarrassment..

Dave

BTW, the same is true with audio. You can do virtually anything with audio, including even time stretching a track while in play, and nothing will glitch. This is not merely a MIDI thing.

Yes, but I am only makng a point about DP MIDI being less than pro tools in some ways, I really dont think it completely fair to compare DP audio, but DP is SUPPOSED to be a MIDI specialist, a program rooted in MIDI excellence.., that's why I complain. When an aspect of an audio specialty program beats out a MIDI program in MIDI, that's embarrassing

MIDI Life Crisis wrote:

toodamnhip wrote:.... in Pro Tools, you can edit, copy and paste MIDI on the fly without glitching play back... Dave

And that is useful for...? I frequently will change things during playback and don't experience any glitches. But if even if I had to stop to edit (which I don't) I don't see any big advantage to what you are describing. I'd much rather have the array of features for data manipulation that DP offers, not to mention the more ergonomic human interface. I just cannot wrap my mind around PTools. Never could, probably will never have to...

> Try to copy and paste MIDI in DP on the fly, then try this in Pro Tools...then you'll feel my pain..lol... <

Have not tried that, but again, unless you are using this in real time for performance, I don;t see what your issue is? Are you so rushed in your work that you need to do this "on the fly?" Even in my most severe deadlines I cannot imagine why I would want to do what you are describing. Maybe you can expatiate?

Why do you think MOTU should be ashamed if such a relatively obscure, and IMO, useless, feature doesn't work for you? Sort of like saying "my Ford overheats so much I can cook a pizza on the hood; Chevy should be ashamed, it only warms the rolls."

Yes, I am rushed in my work, with video shoots, celebs, artists, deadlines..all waiting..I copy and paste MIDI like a mad man..ON THE FLY..haen't you ever looped a section, searched out the best hi hat section and told DP to paste that, then repeat?..stopping MIDI playback for edits is totally weird to me and slows me downm...it's a terrible inconvenience for me

Frodo wrote:Yep, RA. That's why I mentioned that focusing on the strengths of each app is more constructive. There is always a limit, a missing feature, an odd workflow somewhere with all of these DAWs.

At the end of the day, for good or ill, HD transfer rates, bus speeds, RAM quantity/quality, and CPU speed remain the standard by which all else can be measured.

There must be something about DP's GUI that keeps us all using it. I guess the question remains as to whether there are enough features missing from DP to warrant leaving it behind.

Thing is, there really is no middle ground as we're all at the mercy of the developers.

But I can't yet say that I'm unhappy with the software at all myself. Sure, there are features I want to see, and some features are rather urgent to be honest. My biggest complaints these days have more to do with hardware-- from the computer to all interfaces (but that's a story for another time).

I think the nation here needs to realize that I am a long term fan of DP and not defend DP when it is obviously stupid in some area. It needs to get better in some obviously, glaring ways..like stable effin MIDI and MIDI editing...

If we love dp, we should surely complain when it has gone backwards..it has gone backwards in the way I have described...

not all criticism is negatve and sometimes, being posiive when a bad kid needs a spanking is wrong...

If I had Mr Motu in front of me, Id spank him on this one...

after having praiised him on many other things,,,..

lets not confuse my warranted criticiisms to lack of care or dedication and let's not defend EVERY thing negative said about DP..What I have said is true..period...It is stupid this problem exists..it is rediculous an audio platform like pro tools beats DP MIDI stability..end story

toodamnhip wrote:

MIDI Life Crisis wrote:

toodamnhip wrote:.... in Pro Tools, you can edit, copy and paste MIDI on the fly without glitching play back... Dave

And that is useful for...? I frequently will change things during playback and don't experience any glitches. But if even if I had to stop to edit (which I don't) I don't see any big advantage to what you are describing. I'd much rather have the array of features for data manipulation that DP offers, not to mention the more ergonomic human interface. I just cannot wrap my mind around PTools. Never could, probably will never have to...

> Try to copy and paste MIDI in DP on the fly, then try this in Pro Tools...then you'll feel my pain..lol... <

Have not tried that, but again, unless you are using this in real time for performance, I don;t see what your issue is? Are you so rushed in your work that you need to do this "on the fly?" Even in my most severe deadlines I cannot imagine why I would want to do what you are describing. Maybe you can expatiate?

Why do you think MOTU should be ashamed if such a relatively obscure, and IMO, useless, feature doesn't work for you? Sort of like saying "my Ford overheats so much I can cook a pizza on the hood; Chevy should be ashamed, it only warms the rolls."

Yes, I am rushed in my work, with video shoots, celebs, artists, deadlines..all waiting..I copy and paste MIDI like a mad man..ON THE FLY..haen't you ever looped a section, searched out the best hi hat section and told DP to paste that, then repeat?..stopping MIDI playback for edits is totally weird to me and slows me downm...it's a terrible inconvenience for me

I worked with lots of people in this way (on the fly). MIDI Life Crisis, I respect that you have no use for working like this but it is just as valid a work process as any other. DP 2.72 was famous for that. You may recall that MOTU advertised it as a feature. You could do virtually anything during playback and the work flow wouldn't be interrupted for a split second. It kicked major ass. I am sad to see a lot of that performance go away. I do enjoy a lot of features that were not yet available in DP 2.72 and I don't think I'd be willing to lose them as a trade-off. Nonetheless, I would love to see that smooth, fast, flow it used to have.

TDH-- we all get there. Naughty children get spanked-- not because we hate them! It's tough love-- and it's tough to stick it out sometimes.

But dude-- we are SO at the mercy of developers and are sadly in the wrong position to effect much of a change. This hasn't exactly been a banner year for MOTU, and lots of threads about wishlists ought to be a developer's gold mine for ideas-- for understanding the needs of its demographic user base.

22 months and no word from MachFive

DP 5.1 causing similar problems on Intels as we've heard on PPCs for the past year

Stability concerns-- recent threads about read/write errors

VIs disappearing

Firewire logjamming

The apparent necessity to have MOTU interfaces retrofitted to fix clocking issues-- (you haven't had any clocking issues, have you? j/k)

Crashes with a modicum of audio loaded

Oh yeah, all this and more on top of a plethora of useful clicks and twists we'd like to see.

I've written to MOTU and have resorted to using other apps more than usual-- the only thing I've not done is jump ship entirely. It didn't help to see Ableton, PT, Logic, Nuendo, Cubase 4, and Sonar all get nominated for TEC Awards-- but no DP (and Cubase 4 was released just last month!).

I still love DP dearly, but I openly confess that I'm cheating on it... and I think I've got most of my bugs sorted out finally.

So what am I trying to say? Maybe that I feel your pain but after all this time am no longer sure what I can do to make the app better or to make it work better except to keep loving it and perhaps cheating on it while it's not looking.

But the original question had to do with whether or not certain features of PT's MIDI functionality were in some way "embarrassing" to MOTU. I can think of a lot of *other* things that might be described as embarrassing, but on the whole I think DP's MIDI features outshine PTs despite a few capabilities. That's just mho and not merely a gratuitious defense.

toodamnhip

I have read your posts on this subject. I conclude that you should migrate to Protools this instant. Clearly DP is not for you. Your high speed life requires all that Protools can offer. Dont delay, make the switch today! Those artists and celebs you support deserve your maximun productivity. And think of all the time you will save not having to post to Unicornation complaining about the defects in DP. You deserve the best! Dont worry about those of us left using DP, we will struggle on regardless.

toodamnhip wrote:..haen't you ever looped a section, searched out the best hi hat section and told DP to paste that, then repeat?..

Actually, no. I don't write music with loops in it. I guess I just don't understand your work flow.

Wouldn't the simple test be to have one of you who use DP as a PT front-end try toodamnhip's scenario? Then we will see what is the software and was is the PT gear.

I personally don't care about the result myself. I never work that way.

I am concerned about a recent post claiming 100s of VIs in Logic compared to less than 20 in DP. I am concerned that freezing is not so much a feature, but STILL a macro hack after a paid upgrade to 5. I am concerned that a program like (dare I say it?) Sonar has an incredibly wonderful freeze function (right click to unfreeze/unhide frozen tracks anyone?). Oh yeah, Sonar's new pitch editing goes light years beyond DP's MIDI-note style editing, (which I thought was pretty cool 2 years ago).

Of course I don't want a PC and I don't want Sonar etc. I am one of the lucky ones: DP always works great on my system, but still, it's hard not to feel like DP's "Best DAW of the Year" days are but a memory. Then again we did get some glossy freeware-esque VI's. . .

I read every day, but rarely post. Sorry for the non-helpful rant. Thanks to all of you who make the Unicorn such a great resource -- without your faithful efforts to explain, trouble-shoot, and document DP, MOTU would be sunk.

bradycline - you have just hit my two biggest gripes with DP - inefficient processing of VIs compared to other Native DAWs like Logic, and that crap real-time freeze function. I am pretty happy other than that.