Can someone comment on this Black lion ebay story?

[postbop64]

http://cgi.ebay.com/MOTU-24i-w-Black-Li ... dZViewItem

[twangster]

In researching the specs on MOTU's hardware recently, I ran across the Black Lion Audio mod. Here are some links that might provide you with some info:

Black Lion's MOTU Mod webpage:
http://www.blacklionaudio.com/motu_firewire_mod.html

A thread that discusses someone's experience with the Black Lion mod on a Digi 002r, including some before and after audio samples:
http://messageboard.tapeop.com/viewtopi ... 3dc4eb2a49

Some other opinions on Black Lion in this thread:
http://www.electrical.com/phpBB2/viewto ... c&start=20

Here's a thread that says the chips for the Black Lion mod have disappeared, but apparently it applies to the Digi 002:
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/showthread.php?t=84331

Black Lion must indeed be experiencing some growing pains. I wasn't able to connect to their server at all yesterday, but the links worked today.

In general, I'm leery about modding any unit that's still under warranty, although the Black Lion Audio website says that they guarantee their work for life. My general take is that the company (which, according to their website, consists of three guys) is swamped with work, but that they really do know what they're doing. Hopefully, they'll work out the bugs in their customer service.

I hope that's of some help.

[Bill Phillips]

Check out the FAQ page on the Black Lion website. For the MOTU hardware, I seem to recall seeing something about the ADAT and SPDIF interfaces might not work once the Black Lion convert mods are done.

I don't know what your plans are, but that would be a definite deal breaker for me.

[kriista]

I'm getting my traveller modded next month (i had to make an appointment over a month in advance to mail it in for modding!)

they were very promt with email replies however.

From what Jim told me, you shouldnt experience any problems with the adat/spdif on a mac, that the faq is mainly there for windows guys

i was pretty worried about that, but reports are it works on mac (and by proxy DP)

[gearboy]

Better schedule now, as prices are going up for all mods scheduled after Noember 1st. Both of my 828mkii interfaces are going in to get modded in November. 1st one on the 8th, second one on the 20th. They are honoring the current pricing for me since I scheduled last week.

I'm very excited, as the three CD project that I'm currently workind on (since Feb!!) is ready to be mixed and rough mixes are sounding really great. Can't wait to hear these songs with the modded 828mkii.

Jeff

[duncan]

My understanding is that if you also get the upgraded clock, then your interface can't slave sync via ADAT or SPDIF. So if you only have one unit it wouldn't matter, but if you have a master clock, or one unit that is always the master, then you better check on the clock thing before you get it. But the analog part of the mod is great.

[arth]

The reason I am sceptical and won't do it without first seeing hard data is because Black Lion uses typical Snake Oil lingo in describing the effects of the mod:

"It brings the MOTU to life, and improves soundstage and imaging. Vocal tracks are smoother, transients are more focused and less smeared. Guitars are more detailed and lifelike. The soundstage is wider, and instrument placement is much more realistic."

All of the above descriptions are unmeasurable and subject to placebo effects. This sounds too much like the companies that sell $485 wooden volume knobs or $160 cable elevators. Granted, the Black Lion mods might actually be worthwhile, but until I see any independent measurements that doesn't use subjective descriptions, I'll wait before spending money and time.

[mnewport]

All of the above descriptions are unmeasurable and subject to placebo effects. This sounds too much like the companies that sell $485 wooden volume knobs or $160 cable elevators. Granted, the Black Lion mods might actually be worthwhile, but until I see any independent measurements that doesn't use subjective descriptions, I'll wait before spending money and time.

Suit yourself.

Specs can be used as a means of 'snake oil' just as much as subjective descriptions. Look at RME. The Fireface boasts a clock jitter spec of 20 picoseconds. Did you know that they use the same master clock that MOTU uses? It's a VCO that has a minimum of 120 picoseconds of jitter. So how are they getting around this? They're quoting the jitter spec for the firewire bus clock, not the master clock. Is this BS? Maybe. Does it sound important to people who have no way of knowing otherwise? You bet it does--to the tune of $1200 or so.

I get lots of emails from people who want me to send them specs and measurements. I can't think of a single time when someone actually UNDERSTANDS what I'm telling them, and they typically divulge this after a short while. But all of those specs sound important, lofty, and scientific, so therefore they must mean something good, right?

Nady monitors might not sound that good, but they sure do have good specs!

Personally, I find that too many pro audio guys throw the baby out with the bathwater. But hey, what do I know...I'm just a snake oil salesman.

[gearboy]

All of the above descriptions are unmeasurable and subject to placebo effects. This sounds too much like the companies that sell $485 wooden volume knobs or $160 cable elevators. Granted, the Black Lion mods might actually be worthwhile, but until I see any independent measurements that doesn't use subjective descriptions, I'll wait before spending money and time.

Hey, nothing wrong with being a skeptic. However, I have researched this mod since February and spoken to at least two dozen folks onlin who have had it done, AND heard A/B tests that tell the story better than any debate here ever will. Bottom line: I'm paying for a mod next week, and then I'm going to A/B it myself with my 2nd unmodded 828mkii. I'll let you know all about it.

Jeff

[arth]

All of the above descriptions are unmeasurable and subject to placebo effects. This sounds too much like the companies that sell $485 wooden volume knobs or $160 cable elevators. Granted, the Black Lion mods might actually be worthwhile, but until I see any independent measurements that doesn't use subjective descriptions, I'll wait before spending money and time.

Suit yourself.

Specs can be used as a means of 'snake oil' just as much as subjective descriptions.

Indeed, and that's why I don't want specs either, but, as is clearly written above, independent measurements.

I get lots of emails from people who want me to send them specs and measurements. I can't think of a single time when someone actually UNDERSTANDS what I'm telling them, and they typically divulge this after a short while.

First of all, specs and measurements are two different things.
Second, if you fail to bring across the message, that's not necessarily the listeners fault, and dissing everyone in public for not understanding you can hardly be good PR.

But all of those specs sound important, lofty, and scientific, so therefore they must mean something good, right?

Again, specs and measurements are different things, and attacking the validity of specs when lack of independent measurements is brought up is a straw man argument.

Personally, I find that too many pro audio guys throw the baby out with the bathwater. But hey, what do I know...I'm just a snake oil salesman.

Could be because quite often the bathwater is so murky that you can't know whether there's a baby worth your $NNN in there.

Anyhow, good luck with your mods and your business.

[mnewport]

I apologize for my gruff reply yesterday. My wife is having some health problems, and I'm a little bit stressed out over it.

I want to say, though, that I wasn't intending to disrespect anyone. Rather, I was hoping to make the point that specs--'independent' measurements if you will--can be padded, cleverly stated, or misrepresented in order to give the appearance of performance. I choose not to put specs up, and that's simply my personal approach to engineering and doing business. While I use empirical data, I also like to simply listen to see what sounds best to me.

If that bothers some people or turns them away, that's fine with me. I don't say that to be rude or condescending, it's simply how I approach my work.

Anyway, I'm sorry if I came across rudely.

Matt

[gearboy]

Indeed, and that's why I don't want specs either, but, as is clearly written above, independent measurements.

Head on over to the TapeOp message board and do a search for Black Lion. Plenty of folks over there have posted A/B sound samples, and there are plenty of happy customers.

Jeff

PS- Matt, thanks for doing what you do.

[arth]

Great, gearboy - that's useful info!

[gearboy]

BLA 828mk2 mod is the real deal. I just had one of mine modded and I can tell you, things are really 3D and detailed. I'm going to put some things together with my modded and unmodded 828mkiis and place examples up on my server as WAV files.

I can tell you, though, that full mixes that were not recorded with the BLA modded 828mk2 still sound much better due to the analog and clock mods.

Jeff