DP in DAE mode

[dmuckala]

hey just wanted to post a couple of observations of DP under DAE mode if anyone was wondering. I'm actually pretty impressed with it. Most of the ProTools 'rules' apply to DP as well, such as disabling one processor if you use a lot of VI's. But most of the DP anomolies that tend to bring big sessions to a grinding halt actually go away! Screen redraws stay snappy, the program stays pretty snappy even when your soundbites list gets pretty lengthy. VI latency is MUCH better, even at 512. Which anyone that uses protools knows that somehow latency is better in protools engine than MAS. Also, you get full audiosuite region processing. Honestly, DP is a totally different animal under this scenario. So for you pros who are dedicated to DP for your producing and writing but have become frustrated with how bogged down DP gets under MAS, especially when using VI's, I'd suggest you look seriously at this as an option. Also, the sound quality is stellar. And the more of us that use DP this way, the more they will continue to devote R&D to making it better and better.
It's just funny to me that you get much more horsepower with RTAS instruments when one processor is disabled than you do when both are enabled under MAS.

[tripit@earthlink.net]

hey just wanted to post a couple of observations of DP under DAE mode if anyone was wondering. I'm actually pretty impressed with it. Most of the ProTools 'rules' apply to DP as well, such as disabling one processor if you use a lot of VI's. But most of the DP anomolies that tend to bring big sessions to a grinding halt actually go away! Screen redraws stay snappy, the program stays pretty snappy even when your soundbites list gets pretty lengthy. VI latency is MUCH better, even at 512. Which anyone that uses protools knows that somehow latency is better in protools engine than MAS. Also, you get full audiosuite region processing. Honestly, DP is a totally different animal under this scenario. So for you pros who are dedicated to DP for your producing and writing but have become frustrated with how bogged down DP gets under MAS, especially when using VI's, I'd suggest you look seriously at this as an option. Also, the sound quality is stellar. And the more of us that use DP this way, the more they will continue to devote R&D to making it better and better.
It's just funny to me that you get much more horsepower with RTAS instruments when one processor is disabled than you do when both are enabled under MAS.

Are you disabling the 2nd processor or just unchecking the "nap" feature?

[scooter]

Are you talking about D.P. 5 and DAE together. Because I had no luck at all using DAE with D.P. 4.6. I would like to try it again though; better plug ins and (maybe) better sound quality.

thanks,

scooter

[dmuckala]

I'm using whatever DAE got loaded with ProTools HD 7.1.1 with DP 5.1. In the Hardware Engine settings ( i believe it's called Playback engine), you can tell it to use 1 processor. It's the same tweak you have to make under PT software to run VI's. But once you do, it's actually a killer combination. I'm really surprised that more people aren't using this combo. You get the workflow of DP's interface, and the hassle free DAE engine (not that it's flawless, but in my opionion, it's MUCH less sluggish than MAS). Another HUGE benefit...latency free recording.

[scooter]

Great. I'm jazzed. I'll jump back into that set up as soon as I can. I'll have to upgrade to DP5 first though. I might have some questions for you.
Thanks for the info.

scooter

[Frodo]

I've avoided DAE like the plague because of incessant problems I've had with it. But the good reports here have me, like you, curious once again.

I was considering some Digi hardware for my next setup, but I was also weighing this against an Apogee Rosetta with a Symphony card, being at the point where using MOTU interfaces have run their course (long story).

So, if anyone has more info to share on running DAE to counter some of the other DAE/DP problems threads, I'd love to hear all I can get my ears on.

[tripit@earthlink.net]

I'm using whatever DAE got loaded with ProTools HD 7.1.1 with DP 5.1. In the Hardware Engine settings ( i believe it's called Playback engine), you can tell it to use 1 processor. It's the same tweak you have to make under PT software to run VI's. But once you do, it's actually a killer combination. I'm really surprised that more people aren't using this combo. You get the workflow of DP's interface, and the hassle free DAE engine (not that it's flawless, but in my opionion, it's MUCH less sluggish than MAS). Another HUGE benefit...latency free recording.

I have PT7.1 on another boot boot up drive, but I have to stick with 6.9.3 for now, mainly because DP5.1 isn't able to fully access RTAS on aux channels. Once MOTU allows for that, I will move up to PT7.

The playback engine on 6.9 doesn't have any processor selection feature. But you can download a program that will allow you to turn off a processor and or turn off the nap feature, the latter is one of Digi's suggestions for general trouble shooting.

[dmuckala]

Well, the more we can do to spread the word that people can get work done with this combination, the more will try it. I'm not saying that it's perfect, but it's almost like it took so long for MOTU to tweak it to usability, that most people bailed and went to MAS. And not to knock MOTU, but I personally am not crazy about how MAS deals with audio. DAE feels a lot better to me for everything from sequencing VI's to audiosuite processing. And it sounds great.

[cowgs]

hello

I've been running DP with PT 7.2 on an HD1 PCIe system for about a month now. DP is stable, fast, with zero CPU spikes, no MIDI dropped note, etc. All the stuff I grew to dislike about DP such as sluggishness, MIDI dropped notes, latency with high VI counts, are gone.

I've mostly transitioned to using Logic Pro now but I find a few things really appealing in DP verses Logic Pro: DP allows use of RTAS and TMD plug-ins (Logic amazingly doesn't allow RTAS and RTAS is where digidesign is investing most of their VI development). Secondly, DP integrates with hardware MIDI units better (my option) than Logic Pro. Both apps are great and both are very stable running with DAE.

Craig

[Frodo]

hello

I've been running DP with PT 7.2 on an HD1 PCIe system for about a month now. DP is stable, fast, with zero CPU spikes, no MIDI dropped note, etc. All the stuff I grew to dislike about DP such as sluggishness, MIDI dropped notes, latency with high VI counts, are gone.

I've mostly transitioned to using Logic Pro now but I find a few things really appealing in DP verses Logic Pro: DP allows use of RTAS and TMD plug-ins (Logic amazingly doesn't allow RTAS and RTAS is where digidesign is investing most of their VI development). Secondly, DP integrates with hardware MIDI units better (my option) than Logic Pro. Both apps are great and both are very stable running with DAE.

Craig

That's great news to hear.

So, I ran across this from Mixonline:

For a hardware interface, I would go with the ultra-powerful 192 I/O for $3,995. A 24-bit converter capable of sampling rates up to 192 kHz, it features up to 50 channels of analog and digital I/O in various combinations (including AES, TDIF and ADAT digital formats); up to 16 tracks of simultaneous I/O with Pro Tools software; and older Digidesign audio interfaces compatibility.

Is this overkill for a personal studio on a limited budget? Not when taking into account the above criteria ••” the master-quality tracks, the sharing of projects, etc. Previously, 24-bit audio was the domain of the ultra-pro. MDMs just didn't do that. Today, 24-bit is a universally accepted standard for audio production (notwithstanding the CD's fixed wordlength of 16 bits).

I'm not quite sure yet what these systems ship with, but I'm seeing list prices of the HD1 Core for about $8k and the 192 I/O in the 4k range. So if street prices are hovering around $10k, this thing had *better be* flawless, or else I'm going to kick some serious Digidesign bahookey.

Okay-- so what if I went with an HD1 core and an Apogee Rosetta 800 with the X-HD expansion? It would be about the same price as an all-Digidesign setup.

Crimminey-- I'm looking at $25k by the time RAM, and MacPro, and hard drives are sorted out.

Rosetta vs 192 I/O? Hmmm.

Are 8 channels of Apogee better quality than 16 channels of Digidesign?

Frodo sad. Frodo berry, berry sad.

[pcm]

Well, the more we can do to spread the word that people can get work done with this combination, the more will try it. I'm not saying that it's perfect, but it's almost like it took so long for MOTU to tweak it to usability, that most people bailed and went to MAS. And not to knock MOTU, but I personally am not crazy about how MAS deals with audio. DAE feels a lot better to me for everything from sequencing VI's to audiosuite processing. And it sounds great.

I went the other way. Once I ran DP under DAE, I could never go back to MAS. But because there were a few serious issues, and because no one at motu made me feel like they would ever get fixed (they did about a year or so later), I went over to PT fully. PT under DAE is a different animal than PTLE, as is DP under MAS. But PT under DAE is bulletproof. And that was the clincher.

[tripit@earthlink.net]

Well, the more we can do to spread the word that people can get work done with this combination, the more will try it. I'm not saying that it's perfect, but it's almost like it took so long for MOTU to tweak it to usability, that most people bailed and went to MAS. And not to knock MOTU, but I personally am not crazy about how MAS deals with audio. DAE feels a lot better to me for everything from sequencing VI's to audiosuite processing. And it sounds great.

I went the other way. Once I ran DP under DAE, I could never go back to MAS. But because there were a few serious issues, and because no one at motu made me feel like they would ever get fixed (they did about a year or so later), I went over to PT fully. PT under DAE is a different animal than PTLE, as is DP under MAS. But PT under DAE is bulletproof. And that was the clincher.

I've just switched into PT mode while finsihing up a score and after using DP solid non stop for the last several months, I really
had to take a day or two to get my key commands sorted out.
One thing I'm reminded of is how much more I like the layout and how much faster my work flow is on DP. The other thing is how much faster and better the audio editing flow is on PT.

I think that I've had almost the same amount of crashes using both (Maybe 2 in that last week) And in both cases the crashes had to do with VI plugs. But, I don't have any bugs in PT that I've come accross. Everything works as it should and over all the app feels very robust and solid. I don't have that feeling with DP. I'm always waiting for the shoe to drop, like there's always a potential crash at any moment.

There are several bugs in DP that effect my work flow. At least 3 of them effect me every single session - the MIDI wait/QT start problem, bounce to disc is broken (major pain), no RTAS on AUX, (seriously major pain) and the input montoring has a strange 4 second delay that happens randomly.

I wouldn't ever opt for DP under MAS instead of DAE. I could never go back to L&B (latency and bog)

[pcm]

You hit the nail on the head.

[spirit]

...
It's just funny to me that you get much more horsepower with RTAS instruments when one processor is disabled than you do when both are enabled under MAS.

At the Digidesign User conference (a good resource for anybody using DAE mode) it sounds like switching to one processor is advantageous when using any non-PT7 optimized RTAS plugins. There are only a limited number of VI. plug-ins' that have been OPTIMIZED (not just compatible- there is evidently a difference) for PT7 RTAS- but in the possibly unlikely case that you are using only PT7 optimized RTAS plugins, and none that are merely "compatible" then running multiple processors in theory shouldn't be a cause of problems.

Actually, does anybody here know for certain whether the latest KONTAKT 2 version is PT 7 RTAS "optimized" or not?

[Frodo]

...
It's just funny to me that you get much more horsepower with RTAS instruments when one processor is disabled than you do when both are enabled under MAS.

At the Digidesign User conference (a good resource for anybody using DAE mode) it sounds like switching to one processor is advantageous when using any non-PT7 optimized RTAS plugins. There are only a limited number of VI. plug-ins' that have been OPTIMIZED (not just compatible- there is evidently a difference) for PT7 RTAS- but in the possibly unlikely case that you are using only PT7 optimized RTAS plugins, and none that are merely "compatible" then running multiple processors in theory shouldn't be a cause of problems.

Actually, does anybody here know for certain whether the latest KONTAKT 2 version is PT 7 RTAS "optimized" or not?

Wow. I wish I could answer your question about K2-PT RTAS, but the single processor issue has caught my attention...

A few days ago, there was another thread somewhere around here where I was asking about the effectiveness and efficiency of dual processing on the Mac. Someone else a few months ago did a test where they found that DP, for example, seemed to work better on their G4 single processor rather than on their G5 dual. I've just experienced some incredible things when doing some editing on my G4PB-- some of which I just couldn't do as effectively on my G5 dual.

Hmm. I am considering PT, but VI's are a BIG issue. Disabling a processor? Does that create as many problems as it solves? Meaning, better CPU performance at the risk of reducing resources for other functions?