DP5.1 vs. PT 7 le

jefvTaon · Post by **jefvTaon** » Sun Sep 03, 2006 1:03 pm

ya , so i go to the store to check out the MCU and it happened to be 1 of the 2 days a month a PT rep is in the store, and he proceeds to show me the Command8 with PTle running. now mind you i'm pretty sure about going dp/mcu anyway, but can anybody tell me anymore pro/cons between these two?

i know pt le can only do 32 tracks audio.
and what exactly is meant when i saw that DP is the most popular front end for PT?
also this PDC thing i just read about. does DP5.1 have plugin delay compensation ? or PT7le?
and this thing of paying for wrappers and an ilok. does this mean i will have to figure this into the cost of getting plugins?

is there anyone who based their purchase on comparing of Command8 and MCU ? the com8 can only be used with digi 002 rack which i think is heavyhanded. or am i missing something.

and is it fair to compare the digi 002 rack with the Fireface8oo? i
wonder about the converters & pres. i guess i should ask at their forum but i'm interested more what DP users who may have checked them out.

PT looked ok but DP looked better for some reason.

wow, lods of questions...

j.

giles117 · Post by **giles117** » Sun Sep 03, 2006 3:15 pm

These are easy....

DP is the most pop front end for Pro Tools TDM System becasue they wrote drivers in DP to interface well with PT TDM (HD) not LE

Dp 5.1 has PDC, Pro tools just pciked it up. DP Picked it up back near the end of 2004. PT finally picked it up in August 2005 But not as full yimplemented as DP or others....

I use a MCU vs a COmmand 8. I toyed around with the Command 8. it's cute, but it's no MCU which the U is the best part UNIVERSAL (Most/all Software)

It isnt fair to compare the 002 with Firface. Hands down the fireface will sound WORLDS better than 002

My unmodified 2408 sounded better than the 002. which borders on brittle sounding.

Pros.... DP just works better... You never run into the track count limitation of course.....

And the rest is duly noted....

matwell · Post by **matwell** » Sun Sep 03, 2006 6:47 pm

Choosing between DP and PTLE will be heavily influenced by what type of work you are doing the most.

For audio recording, editing and mixing, I recommend PTLE. Let's face it people, Digidesign really has their act together when it comes to digital audio. That's part of the reason why Pro Tools is so successful. It's elegant and extremely well thought out.

Yes, buying an iLok is a small added expense, but it's something you might as well get used to. It cost about $40 and soooooo many plug-ins require iLok authorization these days. Honestly, it's pretty much standard procedure to have one.

With regards to the track count limitation, yeah, I know it's a pain, but I recently purchased the extra Toolkits for PTLE, since I use it all the time for compatibility with major session projects. Either Toolkit pushes the track count up to 48 *stereo* tracks at 96k. This is important, since that technically counts as 96 tracks. So, that helps a lot. If you're using Pro Tools all the time, it will pay for itself in one or two sessions.

Now, for MIDI and Virtual Instruments the story is a bit different. Here is a case where I would strongly recommend *trying* both DP and PTLE, if you can. The approach to dealing with MIDI and VI's are a bit different, so you need to find which one "feels" better for you.

IMHO, if you are just dealing with basic "meat-and-potatoes" MIDI functionality, then PTLE is probably a better bet for you. It doesn't have all the bells and whistles that DP has, but once again, I feel that it is more elegant and productive. A major shortcoming is not having any notation capabilities, but that will change soon, since Avid just bought Sibelius. They will surely add the notation features of Sibelius to Pro Tools, in some form.

The areas where DP "wins" in my book are:
- no track count limitation
- surround capable
- Chunks and V-Racks
- hardware independent
- lots of MIDI processing features (arpeggiate, delay, etc.)
- notation

As far as control surfaces, get the MCU. It's definitely better than the Command 8, and it's compatible with many different sequencers, so if you decide to change gears, you can still use your control surface. Command 8 *only* works with Pro Tools.

Wow, I feel like I probably confused the issue more than helped! I hope that at least some of this information was useful for you.

Best wishes!

giles117 · Post by **giles117** » Sun Sep 03, 2006 8:34 pm

I doubt you confused the issue. PT has an edge over dp in TWO areas..

1 - consolidate selection
2 - waveform editing

Thats it....

Oh sorry

3 - It has been adopted as the industry Standard.... Like VHS versus Beta

And if this helps. I was an avid PT user for 6 years then juped ship to DP. I was up and running in DP in less than a day... The 2 issues I mentioned.. were my ONLY issues... Other than that. PT basically wasnt covincing anylonger. You mention outside audio interfaces... Remember with PT you HAVE to use either M-Audio or Digidesign Interfaces...

I keep up with PT. All the updates and regular useage to ensure I have a JOB at the end of the day.

But I despise working in PT other than waveform editing. which is a lot faster in PT than DP....But thats about it..... Nothing else gets me to run to PT...

PT sucks with VI's STILL even in 7.2 It just doesnt handle the processing as well as DP and no where near as well as Logic.....

I am an avid PT blaster.....

DP will give you up to 20 inserts per track, 10 Sends per track. Unlimited Busses.

I can go on and on.... I have diehard PT'ers callig me now asking about DP. They are getting sick of it....

and to have to pay $495.00 additional to use 48 tracks Stereo or Mono still sucks....The plugins (VI's ) they toss in are so Bread and butter.

Try Kontakt in PT LE.... Nightmare......

I could go on and on... Oh yeah I did a little. LOL.

IF you need industry compatibility, Buy PT, if this is for your personal studio Give PT the finger and join the masses here at unicornation..

PT is the standard, not because they are elegant, but back in the early 90's they were the ONLY PROFESSIONAL AUDIO SOLUTION....
So early adoption got them entrenched.....
And they were smart to GO TDM DSP based. They smoked everybody else as a complete solution IN THE BOX. No one else was CLOSE.... Computers werent fast enough.

I mixed many a 64 Track recording in PT on a Lowly 350Mhz G3.... Try that with a Ntive system and use Drawmer gates, Lexicon Reverbs, TC verbs and chorus, Bombfactory Plugins, etc,.. back in 1999. There wasnt a better solution back then, so they became a household name.

Now computers are so freaking fast PT is going hte way of the dinosaur..... IMHO.... Wait and see. their business model is bad. It's isolationistic.... How long will that work. SSL needed to be bought out buy engineers to stay viable... Hit Factory NYC died... The market is changing and they arent changing fast enough.......
When Pros start jumping ship.... Watch out. I Know more PROs using DP, logic or Nuendo and thumbing their noses at PT.

I Know more major national....... Using anything BUT PT....

But in the end it boils dow to compatibility.... If you MUST be compatible with the majority of studios, Go PT..
If you want a happy overall life.. USE DP.

Ok sales speak over.... LOL....

barryjohns · Post by **barryjohns** » Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:04 pm

How close is the waveform editing in DP? I use Logic Pro now and find editing audio very frustrating. Can I do audio editing as fast and smooth as in Pro Tools le?

TheCoalman · Post by **TheCoalman** » Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:04 pm

very well said Giles...

matwell · Post by **matwell** » Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:23 pm

I have no intention of turning this into a debate of DP vs. Logic vs. Pro Tools.

Each digital audio sequencer out there is just a tool to be used. Some people will naturally gravitate towards one or the other. Heck, some people (like me) have decided to use each one for what it does best.

My personal experience with Pro Tools has been that it seems better thought out when it comes to recording, editing and mixing digital audio. I agree that Digidesign's policies *are* isolationist and in the long run, they will probably have to "change or die". But when it comes to how the software works, at the end of the day, I choose Pro Tools for digital audio. Small things like an extremely useful Strip Silence (compared to DP's, which is primitive at best); easy conversion of stereo tracks to split mono; tab to transient; Spot sync point to insertion... all of these little features make a difference when working with digital audio. Yes, all of those things *can* be done with other DAW's. It's just easier and quicker to do it with Pro Tools. So, choose the tool that does the job that you want, and does it the way that you like it.

Sergievsky · Post by **Sergievsky** » Sun Sep 03, 2006 10:28 pm

So I'm trying out the Sony Oxford plugins in PTle and they are really impressive. I'd also like to check out McDsp, but again, they're RTAS only. If Sony would come out with an AU version I probably could stay in DP (when I can run DP5 in my MBpro with kernel panics that is). But as it is, a lot of the good plugs are PT only.

cmcenearney · Post by **cmcenearney** » Sun Sep 03, 2006 10:29 pm

giles117 wrote:
It isnt fair to compare the 002 with Firface. Hands down the fireface will sound WORLDS better than 002

I took a peek at this thread because I've thought about trying PT, for the reason that my needs have dwindled down to basic audio tracking and mixing. However, if your main focus is "bread and butter", just audio, then what could possibly be more important than your converters and pres?

I'm still on a first generation 828 and thinking my next upgrade will be a Fireface or other, newer interface.

BobK · Post by **BobK** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 1:30 am

matwell wrote: Yes, buying an iLok is a small added expense, but it's something you might as well get used to. It cost about $40 and soooooo many plug-ins require iLok authorization these days. Honestly, it's pretty much standard procedure to have one.

Ilok is not required for the standard 002R package. It IS required for the Music Production or DV Toolkit options, and for ProTools M-Powered. If you don't need those options, don't worry about the iLok, though eventually you may need one anyway for third-party plug-ins.

I recently bought an 002R for compatibility with PT, but I won't be leaving DP.

I haven't used PTLE enough to come to a conclusion whether I prefer one over the other for audio editing. As I discover things in one program that I like or which are missing (but present in the other), I'm adding them to a list. None of them are life-or-death things; you can make a record with either DP or PTLE. But here are some areas where DP comes out ahead, and which I haven't seen mentioned in other threads:

PTLE lacks snapshot automation, continuous scrolling, and SMPTE timecode (these are only in PT HD, and you can get the latter two in the $1200 DV Toolkit option for PTLE); DP has all of these. I use continous scrolling all the time in DP, so it's really frustrating to not have it in PTLE.

DP makes saved templates available in the File menu; not so in PTLE.
Creating and using templates is more convoluted in PT.

PT also lacks 'Recent items' in the File menu (not a huge deal, but I got used to using it in DP rather than navigating to the file).

DP has a searchable key commands window, and you can completely customize key commands; PT lacks both of these features.

DP has faster-than-realtime bounces, and multi-bounce; PTLE has neither. I found faster-than-realtime bounces very convenient; I could do a quick bounce to MP3, dump the file on my iPod, and listen to it on different systems. With real-time bounces, I may do that less frequently.

DP has unlimited undo, and a very thorough undo history window; PT is limited to 32 steps, and doesn't have the detailed undo history. DP's detailed timeline was a lifesaver when I had to troubleshoot some final bounces before a mastering session.

If you need more than 18 simultaneous hardware inputs (the maximum on the 002R), and don't have megabucks to spend, then DP is the clear choice.

I agree with giles117's gripes about the Digi business model - like having to pay big bucks to get more tracks, and the insularity of PT hardware and software. And the hobbling of some PT features in PTLE is infuriating.

AND: if you do a search, you'll find other threads here which mention some nice PTLE features which DP lacks - like 'identify beat', 'tab to transient', and another feature whose name I can't recall that lets you select regions (the equivalent of soundbites) from a pop-up menu in the audio track - which can be convenient for comping from different takes. Also, PTLE has solo and mute buttons in the edit window, which I miss in DP's sequence editor; pop-up faders for aux sends; and time rulers which are easier to show and hide.

Kaszper · Post by **Kaszper** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 1:42 am

My own Pro Tools adventure came to an end when I tried using it for MIDI sequencing ••“ it was so clumsy.

Luckily, a new Mac and an upgrade to DP5 came to the rescue.

Pro Tools is a great engineer's program, but for composer types nothing touches the elegant efficiency of Digital Performer.

Phil Jeffers · Post by **Phil Jeffers** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 3:33 am

jefvTaon wrote:ya , so i go to the store to check out the MCU and it happened to be 1 of the 2 days a month a PT rep is in the store, and he proceeds to show me the Command8 with PTle running. now mind you i'm pretty sure about going dp/mcu anyway, but can anybody tell me anymore pro/cons between these two?

i know pt le can only do 32 tracks audio.
and what exactly is meant when i saw that DP is the most popular front end for PT?
also this PDC thing i just read about. does DP5.1 have plugin delay compensation ? or PT7le?
and this thing of paying for wrappers and an ilok. does this mean i will have to figure this into the cost of getting plugins?

is there anyone who based their purchase on comparing of Command8 and MCU ? the com8 can only be used with digi 002 rack which i think is heavyhanded. or am i missing something.

and is it fair to compare the digi 002 rack with the Fireface8oo? i
wonder about the converters & pres. i guess i should ask at their forum but i'm interested more what DP users who may have checked them out.

PT looked ok but DP looked better for some reason.

j.

Hi, I use both Pro Tools and Digital Performer (although, I'm still pretty new on DP). I also own both MCU and C8. Basically I have dual systems, each with their own interfaces and control surfaces etc. You may see this as overkill, but it is working very, very well for me.

Yes, completely different applications. I think the above comment re: Avid/Digidesign acquiring Sibelius will make it a stronger sequencer. Now however, DP runs circles around it. For pure audio, PT's is the go.

This is very simplistic however and really you have to look a bit deeper into the apps and see what will work best for you.

If you're a serious editor, bypass Pro Tools all together and get Bias Peak Pro 5. This little app blows PT's out of the water for serious mono/stereo file editing and Bias does not lock you into any antiquated hardware rules.

The 002R is ok. Just OK. The pre's are alright and the converters are alright. Most people who want more quality will go for external clock, converters and pres (which sort of rules out the whole interface really... and you need a bloody iLok anyway for the Toolkits!).

A quality interface (don't rule out MOTU's gear) and DP + the MCU will not disappoint. If you're a serious composer or looking for powerful compositional tools DP 100%.

If you want to record your band, put out some demos and have a lot of fun Pro Tools LE.

If you want a killer professional set-up, get the best of both: run DP in DAE mode and have PT's HD as your mixing platform or similar.

Look closer, and maybe look at other apps too. Everyone is Logic crazy lately. Neundo, Cubase with some cute new interfaces. One will jump out and bite you. Personally having both PT's, DP (also Peak Pro) is a great combination for me for now and into the future.

jefvTaon · Post by **jefvTaon** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 9:42 am

thank you everybody for your comments and insight. it is priceless. i have no physical community (ok, they're here but they love Logic) to help me, and this being my first foray into forums, outside the occasional comment at voxxtalks, has literally helped my peace of mind in selecting what i will be growing in to the next years. a very heavy thing for someone with no credit, and no credit card!

as with all creativity... personal or professional regardless, tools are made by people for people. and tools are what, they say, make the difference between us and apes. but as being a composer/performer from the start, its about COMMUNICATING with PEOPLE, in this ever increasingly mad world for me. digital or analog, virtual or physical, i try not to see people as things or a means to an end.
as an artist, and generally anyone connected with "show biz", you have to take rejection as part and parcel to the price of admission. some times it does get a bit abstract as we get physically more removed from those we work and play with. and there is a tendency to commodify or abbreviate as it IS a business. but in the end i will always go with whatever is more, for lack of a better word, ( gotta go to work soon) humane, and that at this time would translate into : customer service, and non-Machiavellian values. the fact that the company behind PT is garnering certain reviews definitely influences my decision.
creativity is all about WASTE... and not EFFICIENCY. did jimi worry if he was gonna break a string? no. do i have to throw away 99 mediocre ideas to get the one good one? yes. i cant and dont want to waste $ cause i dont have any... thats not my point. my point is what does one have to do/be to make that really efficient and elegant software tool? or nail that gold record on the wall? i will go to ANY ends to make a mix right or a song go down the way it should. but i always try to remember it doesnt matter a jot if it means i stop seeing people as individuals or, as only numbers, ... in the process. good thing people similar to me/us are still needed to come up with actual music for this stuff. but thats just my own personal airy-fairy-project-studio opinion. (no wonder i cant pay the rent.)

i will be using this in a personal studio and doing mostly audio. but down the road there is the need for more MIDI; some of the songs i will be playing along with live, at some point, and its always been a dream to create music simulataneiously for cd and live with MIDI commands & patch changing etc. MIDI sequencing is something i see in my future more and DP sounds like the thing for me.

yes i asked the difference between these two products that i have boiled down to. but you've either directly or indirectly given me more info than words on the box, or whats under the hood.
i'm sure i'll be coming back to this post as i get started in dp and look at some of the terms and short cuts i dont understand at this time. but i got more than enuf to take the next step...

see ya round, jef

tripit@earthlink.net · Mon Sep 04, 2006 11:40 am

barryjohns wrote:How close is the waveform editing in DP? I use Logic Pro now and find editing audio very frustrating. Can I do audio editing as fast and smooth as in Pro Tools le?

PT is the best hands down for audio editing. Nothing is as well laid out, easier and faster than PT. It's what PT has been about since day one - audio editing.
Dp is better than Logic and is quite functional, but it's not as easy and streamlined as PT.
I believe if you make a living editing audio, go with PT. If you make a living doing MIDI, go with Dp. If you lie somewhere in the middle, go with both. That's what I do.

pcm · Post by **pcm** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 11:30 pm

What an interesting and diverse set of views. Fascinating. Here's my perspective.

I used DP full-time for six years, and now have more or less switched over to PTHD. I am a pro recording engineer of over 25 years, and come from a long background of 2" 24-trk and large format consoles. Switching to DP in the late nineties was like stepping into the 21st century for sure, but except for a few short "smooth-sailing" bouts here and there, it never had the stability that my work demanded. Crashes were WAY too common. Large sessions with lots of tracks/edits/plugins would slow to a crawl. Bugs would appear in new releases that would take a year and a half to go away. Extremely serious bugs. I got tired of making excuses to clients, and I was being made to look rather bad at times as well. I bought a PTHD system, partly to appease my engineers, who now were refusing to use DP in front of clients (I'm not exaggerating here). So they ran PT software, and I ran DP as the front end to PTHD hardware. (I was the holdout) Wow. TDM plugins, like Sony, Cranesong, Aphex, etc. Quickpunch. An on-board mixer with NO LATENCY - I could even do headphone mixes for the musicians right on screen! Seemingly unlimited power, with no slowdown, no matter how many tracks, plugins, or edits I threw at it. But there were still bugs. Nasty bugs. Lots of calls to tech support. With no promise of these bugs being fixed in a timely manner, and that's when they were even acknowledged. I felt like those soldiers who were asking for amour. I just never got the feeling that they "got it". So I starting running PT as the front end. Once I got up to speed on it (a couple of weeks), I felt like my long journey had come to an end. I finally got back to where I was when I was running "real gear". Now, one year-plus later, I still haven't had my first crash. The editing tools are fantastic, and there are no bugs that I can find. The old adage is really true, you get what you pay for.

MIDI was a big concern. While I don't do MUCH MIDI, I have used MIDI since it was invented (dating myself now...). My favorite MIDI program of all time was Vision, never cared for Performer's MIDI all that much. Even after Performer got graphical editing, it still seemed alien to me. I was delighted to find that PT's MIDI editing is much more Vision-like, undoubtably due to the presence of two of Opcode's programmers working for Digi now. MIDI editing in PT is still not as good as it was in Vision, but I do like it better than in DP. I bet you never thought you'd hear someone say that!

As far as those of you who say that PT is on it's way out, etc., people have been saying that for years. If you don't own or use one of these systems, you don't really have a firm grasp on the subject. Run DP under DAE, and you'll see that immediately. DP is a monster under DAE. Unfortunately, I don't find the software reliable enough to handle what I throw at it. And that is MY basis of comparison of these two platforms. One flies and one doesn't.

Anyway, this is my personal perspective.

MOTUnation.com

DP5.1 vs. PT 7 le

DP5.1 vs. PT 7 le

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