condenser for stage and studio

Noam · Post by **Noam** » Mon Aug 07, 2006 12:52 am

Im looking for a mic that will let me sing quietly and still be heard over the band without feedback. What I do now is sing loudly through a 58. Overdubbing in the studio I prefer to sing quietly through an Oktava MK 319 and I would love to be able to do that while plalying live - and be able to record a quality vocal in a live setting.
I like mic.s with strong proximity affect. Any ideas ?

-noam

David Polich · Post by **David Polich** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 9:58 am

Here's the deal - there is no such thing as a mic that will let you sing quietly over a loud band. I've tried for 20 plus years to find one, and to no avail.
Bands are loud - you have to sing loud to get over that.

You can try gating and compressing and equlaization live - that's how live engineers attempt to get the vocal up above the band. If you are using wedge (floor) monitors, you have the additional problem of feedback when you try to get the vocal up so you can hear yourself. This is the age old problem because, when you think about it, a monitor is a speaker pointed at YOU and the MIC - a terrible concept. In truth, it doesn't really work well, ever.

In-ear monitors are a good solution for hearing yourself - if you can afford them, and if you have a sound engineer who can hook them up and get all the transmitters working.

WSVP · Post by **WSVP** » Thu Aug 17, 2006 10:22 am

I agree with David.

In addition a condenser mic will generally make matters worst. Condenser mics tend to be more even between proximate and distant sound. This makes them more prone to feedback than dynamic mics.

Macinbowl · Post by **Macinbowl** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 6:33 am

I totally agree with David and WSVP.

The only safe way to get through a live mix is to give the engineer something to work with. That mean gain. There are some other choice of dynamic mic though.

The SM58 is a really good mic. Help a lot when monitor mixes (wedge) are loud. The Shure BETA 58 can add more color in the the top end. AKG C535 sounds pretty good too but is also a litlle bit more sensitive for feedback.

Some compressor are also well done for vocal. Personally, my favorite is the BSS DPR 901 dynamic equalizer. Basically, it's a multiband compressor. It let you compress 1 to 4 band of frequencies with or without a traditionnal level compressor. For vocal, it's amazing! Sound very good on a piano too.

Mat

YouTube · Post by **James Steele** » Mon Aug 21, 2006 11:18 am

Remind me to tell the story sometime of my old cover band and having to sing over not only a band, but a drummer who decided he wanted to hear is own drums as if he were listening to a CD or something. I'd send him a direct out from the house board and he had his own mixer and poweramp back next to him feeding a 15/horn wedge. However, this still wasn't loud enough for him and the mics would feedback when he pushed it higher. He then put MIDI triggers on each drum and used it to trigger an Alesis D4 which fed his mixing board, so he could turn it up unGodly louds. It was killing me singing over that stage volume every weekend. We were playing "bars." At the end he told me that's just how he had to have his rig and if he couldn't he'd quit. When faced with the dilemma of straining my voice every night or replacing a drummer... well that was a nobrainer.

Noam · Post by **Noam** » Wed Aug 23, 2006 7:42 pm

Thanks all for the feedback (ugh-couldn't resist) on this topic. I was away from a computer, believe it or not, for the last week, hence the delayed response.

O.K. I got it. A condensor is not a magic bullet and will likely worsen the problem. I do have 58's and 57's around. I will go back to them and try tweaking eq and compression a bit, along with repositioning monitors etc.

Seeing ads for stage style condensors had me hoping - but I shall abandon all hope here.

James -That drummer you had is probably putting some audiologist's kid through college about now - if he's got a day job to pay for the help.

Thanks so much for this fourm by the by. It's been an invaluable help.
-noam

Jim · Post by **Jim** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 1:19 pm

You could look into one of those ugly ass Coles 4104 mics that were made to do field reporting in battle zones:

http://www.coutant.org/coles.html

I've never seen a singer using one. You could be the first!

Maxx · Post by **Maxx** » Sun Aug 27, 2006 2:56 am

Hey Noam,

If you haven't found a mic yet.... Check out Audix OM7 mic - It has a strong proximity, rich bottom, highs that cut just right... amazing feedback rejection which allows incredible volume. I bought mine for $350 new 4 years ago. Worth every penny. Good luck!

http://www.audixusa.com

http://www.audixusa.com/Acrobat/OM7_spec_sheet.pdf

giles117 · Post by **giles117** » Sun Aug 27, 2006 7:11 am

Audix.. YEEECHHH!!!!!!!

I got stuck doing the Milwaukee SUmmerfest on a stage with nothing but audix mikes. That great bottom you like ... I call it muddy midrange... Sorta like the DJ smile curve on an EQ.....

Never could get a nice balanced smooth sound. and For god sakes. I had a Line Array...

Anyway... The fella are telling you right. If you want to sing softly, have the band play softly during thos passionately soft passages.

Dynamics is the key.......

rearrange the way the material is played.... Effect..

And James. That drummer would have gotten smacked by the wedge he was listening to from me. I cant stand an arrogant musician. All the Guys I have been blessed to work with that are actually Pros are super humble. Most of them tell me to turn their wedges DOWN....

And these are pros on the regular touring circuit.

Young and Old alike.

If you are the leader of your band... LEAD.... Have them pull back when it's time for you to sing "softly"

Obscure Object · Post by **Obscure Object** » Sun Aug 27, 2006 12:42 pm

I posted a thread about a similar topic. What you need is EQ, compression and such. Not a new mic. shure sm58s or even 57s are great for live vocals.

Unfortunatly, Live engineers aren't always very "in tune" with your needs. I think your best bet is getting a vocal processor so you can have more control over your voice. I was doing some research on that. The most comprehensive piece of gear I found was the TCHelion Voice Live. It comes with a mic pre with phantom power and all the processors you can ever imagine for use with vocals. Too bad it's so expensive I can't afford it.

Something like the dbx pro vocal (dun remember the exact name) covers the same bases except for the harmonizers. that one is $300 i think. Or u can simply get ur pre of choice n add a multi-effect unit that has compression, EQ n reverb. Even a cheap tube pre or channel strip coupled with a humble effects processor is more consistent than trying to get live engineers to "listen to you"!

giles117 · Post by **giles117** » Sun Aug 27, 2006 1:21 pm

Obscure Object wrote:Unfortunatly, Live engineers aren't always very "in tune" with your needs. Even a cheap tube pre or channel strip coupled with a humble effects processor is more consistent than trying to get live engineers to "listen to you"!

Without coming off touchy, I take offense to this statement.

ANY REAL live engineer is in tune with the band/singers, etc..... he is paid to pay attention and meet your NEEDS.....

What you speak of, is what I call a House Tech. All they care is that it is on.

BUT A MIXER... Learns your show, listens to your show and moves IN TUNE with the dynamics, atmosphere, feeling and energy of YOUR show.

All the rest of them are just out to get a check. PERIOD......

Obscure Object · Post by **Obscure Object** » Sun Aug 27, 2006 1:35 pm

giles117 wrote:
Obscure Object wrote:Unfortunatly, Live engineers aren't always very "in tune" with your needs. Even a cheap tube pre or channel strip coupled with a humble effects processor is more consistent than trying to get live engineers to "listen to you"!

ANY REAL live engineer is in tune with the band/singers, etc..... he is paid to pay attention and meet your NEEDS.....

What you speak of, is what I call a House Tech. All they care is that it is on.

BUT A MIXER... Learns your show, listens to your show and moves IN TUNE with the dynamics, atmosphere, feeling and energy of YOUR show.

All the rest of them are just out to get a check. PERIOD......

Totally agree. It's just my experience that most of whom I dealt with are the "House Tech" type

.... I dun play live a lot n i dun have my own live engineer. So I guess that's why I was generalizing. I just think that if u dun have the luxury of having a dedicated concerned live engineer on ur crew that maybe ur better off having control urself (can ditch my engineer side i guess

)