DP Vs Logic Pro 7.2

blue · Post by **blue** » Sun Aug 13, 2006 2:58 pm

WSVP wrote:While I agree that the game is changing. The only current DAW package that includes "serious" VI plugins is Logic Pro. DP, Pro Tools, Nuendo, Cubase, Sonar and Samplitude all ship with limited or no VI plugins.

I personally think Motu would be better served by improving its reverb and dynamics processor plugins. High quality utility plugins like Amp Simulation and Chromatic tuners would also help DP. Reverb is the thing in DP I find the most lacking.

I still feel DP has a huge advantage in the interface department. However Apple has come a long way with Logic.

I agree. I have not heard the VIs that come with Cubase, Sonar etc, but I am very familiar with Logic's. I would pay (separately) for some of them, they're that good.

I would love for MOTU to revamp its plugins too, especially its reverb and compression plugs.

That said, the quality of DP's plugs is not a deal breaker for me. I would rather go outside to other companies who specialize in their respective products for my VIs and processors.

My main point is that, while bundled plugins used to be considered an add-on to round out the package, they are gradually becoming a bigger draw for newer customers. I see that less as a ploy to sweeten the deal and more as a result of increasing dependence on software for sound generation. Eventually, people are going to expect companies like MOTU to deliver not only a great sequencer but usable plugins to boot.

Frodo · Post by **Frodo** » Sun Aug 13, 2006 3:43 pm

blue wrote:Eventually, people are going to expect companies like MOTU to deliver not only a great sequencer but usable plugins to boot.

Very true.

But if I recall, there wasn't a lot else available for the Mac when these plugs were first bundled. I agree that they need revamping. Standards are higher now than they were. What was expected to run in OS9 had to have certain limits.

Since those plugs were done, we've gone to 192k, practically unheard of in OS9. AU is a way of life for Mac users now. Gosh-- processers since 2000 have gotten to the point that we can do more with higher quality audio hardware that spotlights the shortcomings of bottom-line plugins.

Okay, so perhaps MOTU won't make an Altiverb-calibre reverb, but adding a native convolution reverb of some sort wouldn't hurt.

As for price-- we're already paying "how much" for Waves, AudioEase, UAD-1 and other third-party plugs. I would gladly pay MOTU for native plugs of the same quality.

dougieb · Post by **dougieb** » Sun Aug 13, 2006 3:53 pm

Logic is only one serious GUI upgrade from squishing DP.

Their engine is amazingly efficient. I can't get over it.

Currently, the GUI just blows in Logic.

Rush909 · Post by **Rush909** » Mon Aug 14, 2006 7:48 am

dougieb wrote:Logic is only one serious GUI upgrade from squishing DP.

Their engine is amazingly efficient. I can't get over it.

Currently, the GUI just blows in Logic.

WRONG! For DP users... logic is just a HUGE PITA to use... man you can't even click on a soundbite and listen to it like you can in DP (click and hold)... in logic you still have to solo that track and hit play then unsolo the track... silly... silly... oh one more... silly..

BUT! I if I had it my way (in a fantasy planet far far away)... I would be willing to pay $5000 for a version of dp that come with no silly useless VI and is just optimized for speed and has no glaring bugs... fix the damn way DP handles project with may soundbites, and generally make it a kickin' app again... RANT ALERT ---->ever since people started doing thing fully ITB, DP has had problems... DP CPU issues were never a problem before cause everyone was using external synths and FX... now that everything is ITB, DP's old badly written code can't handle it... Logic for all it's backward way of doing things was coded properly from the biginning, that is why as soon as things went ITB, Logic took that change in stride... so back to reality, the only way to really use DP in a professional fast paced environment (no I ain't waiting for DP to "freeze" VIs in REAL TIME) is to farm out VI and/or FX to secondary computer... then DP's shortcomming start to disappear and we can all resume using our beloved DAW again.

monkey man · Post by **monkey man** » Mon Aug 14, 2006 9:02 am

WSVP wrote:I personally think Motu would be better served by improving its reverb and dynamics processor plugins. High quality utility plugins like Amp Simulation and Chromatic tuners would also help DP. Reverb is the thing in DP I find the most lacking.

Agreed. I've posted on the reverb and dynamics thing, too.

Amp simulation (and cabinets, I presume) would be cool.
Reamping would be much simpler and multiple streams could be effected at once.
More options for vocal tones too.
Nice.

Dragonwind · Post by **Dragonwind** » Mon Aug 14, 2006 9:21 am

I always go back and forth and still end up using Logic a lot becuase of the reverb and the ability to mute sections of a MIDI track (unless I am dumb and cannot figure out how to do that in DP) so I would also love to see DP just take the reverb from MSI and ETHNO and have it as a plugin that comes with DP.

There are a few other minor annoyances like only getting 8 tracks at a time in the mixer window when using a macking control. For using Appleloops I fing LIVE makes a great way to browse and add.

Thanks,
Chris

dougieb · Post by **dougieb** » Mon Aug 14, 2006 10:45 am

Rush909 wrote:
dougieb wrote:Logic is only one serious GUI upgrade from squishing DP.

Their engine is amazingly efficient. I can't get over it.

Currently, the GUI just blows in Logic.
WRONG! For DP users... logic is just a HUGE PITA to use... man you can't even click on a soundbite and listen to it like you can in DP (click and hold)... in logic you still have to solo that track and hit play then unsolo the track... silly... silly... oh one more... silly..

(LOL) Like I said... Logic is only one sedrious GUI upgrade from squishing DP. (GUI = Graphical User Interface)

sdfalk · Post by **sdfalk** » Mon Aug 14, 2006 11:45 am

dougieb wrote:
Rush909 wrote:
dougieb wrote:Logic is only one serious GUI upgrade from squishing DP.

Their engine is amazingly efficient. I can't get over it.

Currently, the GUI just blows in Logic.
WRONG! For DP users... logic is just a HUGE PITA to use... man you can't even click on a soundbite and listen to it like you can in DP (click and hold)... in logic you still have to solo that track and hit play then unsolo the track... silly... silly... oh one more... silly..

(LOL) Like I said... Logic is only one sedrious GUI upgrade from squishing DP. (GUI = Graphical User Interface)

I'd say a few more then one.
I use logic, and the included instruments are great, the CPU efficiency
is fantastic (though in my experiences with DP 5.1 that gap is closing)
The editing tools in Logic are horrible, adding instruments to DP
makes up (for me at least) what's included in Logic to a large extent.
DP also took a step forward including a few built in instruments.
Overall Logics interface is so awful (though somewaht improved)
that it's going to be awhile before Apple significantly improves
upon it.
In that time I'd be guessing Motu will still be working on DP as well.

musnoz · Post by **musnoz** » Mon Aug 14, 2006 2:10 pm

dougieb wrote:
Rush909 wrote:
dougieb wrote:Logic is only one serious GUI upgrade from squishing DP.

Their engine is amazingly efficient. I can't get over it.

Currently, the GUI just blows in Logic.
WRONG! For DP users... logic is just a HUGE PITA to use... man you can't even click on a soundbite and listen to it like you can in DP (click and hold)... in logic you still have to solo that track and hit play then unsolo the track... silly... silly... oh one more... silly..

(LOL) Like I said... Logic is only one sedrious GUI upgrade from squishing DP. (GUI = Graphical User Interface)

We could also say : DP is only one serious VI upgrade from squishing Logic (VI : Virtual Instruments).

Who knows the future ?

WSVP · Post by **WSVP** » Mon Aug 14, 2006 2:56 pm

I do not believe Apple is in any hurry to decimate Digital Performer...

While there have been many times Apple has competed with Mac developers, most of the time it was to protect the Mac platform. Case in point Final Cut Pro vs Adobe Premiere. This was discussed in another thread. I am sure Apple looks at Digital Performer as an asset to the mac platform. Adobe Premiere became a disaster for the mac platform.

Frankly, Apple has the resources to improve Logic and cut its price in half. This would certainly put a dent in DP revenue. Based on the way Apple's audio products have been positioned it appears as though Apple is trying to dance around direct competition with MOTU or Steinberg. I do not think it is in Apple's best interest to harm companies like MOTU.

Logic does serve as a check mechanism, it keeps companies like MOTU from becoming complacent.

pcm · Post by **pcm** » Mon Aug 14, 2006 7:52 pm

Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't believe that Apple has much to do with Logic as far as coding goes, they merely own Emagic, the developers of Logic. If Apple actually coded the thing, it wouldn't look like that, now would it?

Wouldn't it be nice to know what the actual market share of all of these programs is? I wonder about that a lot. At least among the non-pro users. As far as the pro users go, a round of phone calls to a random list of studios in your town will answer that question in a hurry.

As far as a $5k version of DP goes, it already exists. Buy a PT HD1 system (about 5k), and run DP in DAE mode. DAE will use most of the card just for the audio engine and mixer, but you can use the rest of the cpu power in your machine for plugins. If you have a recent machine, you will have substantial power for plugins. A lot of Pro Tools users do just this, they call them "hybird" systems. TDM for the mix engine and mixer, and host processing for the plugins. Cheaper than "full" TDM, but with most of the same advantages.

This will kick the crap out of a native DP system in every way. I know, I own two of them. Once you dump MAS, half your problems go away.

Rush909 · Post by **Rush909** » Mon Aug 14, 2006 8:08 pm

dougieb wrote:
Rush909 wrote:
dougieb wrote:Logic is only one serious GUI upgrade from squishing DP.

Their engine is amazingly efficient. I can't get over it.

Currently, the GUI just blows in Logic.
WRONG! For DP users... logic is just a HUGE PITA to use... man you can't even click on a soundbite and listen to it like you can in DP (click and hold)... in logic you still have to solo that track and hit play then unsolo the track... silly... silly... oh one more... silly..

(LOL) Like I said... Logic is only one sedrious GUI upgrade from squishing DP. (GUI = Graphical User Interface)

dude... that was just a repeat of your initial post, except for the spelling mistakes (sedrious = serious).

Frodo · Post by **Frodo** » Mon Aug 14, 2006 8:14 pm

pcm wrote:Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't believe that Apple has much to do with Logic as far as coding goes, they merely own Emagic, the developers of Logic. If Apple actually coded the thing, it wouldn't look like that, now would it?

LOL!! It might not, then again-- look at the similarities between the GUI's of Final Cut and Logic. Final Cut was *part of* Apple well before Emagic was and the two apps appear to have been designed for each other in many ways. There may be some visceral truth to this that I've missed in documentation-- or it's a coincidence.

pcm wrote: Wouldn't it be nice to know what the actual market share of all of these programs is? I wonder about that a lot. At least among the non-pro users. As far as the pro users go, a round of phone calls to a random list of studios in your town will answer that question in a hurry.

While Pro Tools still appears to be the most commonly found, larger studios would likely equip themselves with Logic and DP as well just to keep compatible with a wider client base.

Another intriguing question might be of those who own these apps, which ones do they actually put to work most often. That's a tricky survey-- but most major studios will have a website with a gear list for public consideration.

dbudde · Post by **dbudde** » Mon Aug 14, 2006 8:21 pm

pcm wrote:Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't believe that Apple has much to do with Logic as far as coding goes, they merely own Emagic, the developers of Logic. If Apple actually coded the thing, it wouldn't look like that, now would it?

I think you are wrong here. Apple has everything to do with Logic. Gerhard Langling and many of the developers from Emagic now reside in Cupertino at Apple headquarters as Apple employees. Several Apple audio engineers now work on Logic. So when do these people stop being Emagic and become Apple. I'd say they are Apple and have been for quite some time.

Logic looks much different to me since it became version 7 (its first release as an Apple product). The quality of the manuals alone have Apple writtten all over them. Product pricing and packaging have Apple written all over them. And I don't mean the box, I mean the price points and feature sets, and marketing collaterals (e.g., tutorials, and online materials).

Also, Garageband is Logic underneath. Doesn't look at all like Logic. It was developed by Apple engineers (some used to work for Emagic) others worked elsewhere before going to work for Apple. It never existed before Emagic was acquired by Apple.

WSVP · Post by **WSVP** » Mon Aug 14, 2006 9:52 pm

Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't believe that Apple has much to do with Logic as far as coding goes, they merely own Emagic, the developers of Logic. If Apple actually coded the thing, it wouldn't look like that, now would it?

I agree that Logic is currently below the bar when it comes to Apple interface standards. However it is immensely more in line now, than it was when Apple purchased emagic. To my eye the original Logic interface looked like a 9 year old put it together, it has certainly come a long way since then.

I am sure they are approaching interface changes gradually. Remember while there are many of us DP users who loathe the Logic interface, there are probably many existing Logic users who are not happy that the interface they love is changing.