Have I discovered a huge flaw in DP5?

[bone.china]

To Shooshie and James, what I wrote was personal specualtion and not speculation for Money magazine. Notwithstanding that there is plenty of anecdotal evidence to support my statements. For instance, the continual and steady rise of the adoption of M-Audio hardware. I see it everywhere I see MOTU products now. And it took them less time to gain that market share than it did MOTU to gain theirs. The unbelievable wide adoption of ProTools LE with MBox or M-Audio in Hip Hop/Rap, R&B, and rock -- this combination has become so prevalent over the past 3 years that MOTU has got to be wishing that it was able to do that. What Avid/Digidesign/M-Audio did there is nothing short of a miraculous phenomenon for it is the go-to system for many a budding musician/engineer these days. I consulted for home computer systems in L.A for a short while a little over a year ago and nothing appealed to hobbyists or beginners than the ProTools LE system combined with Reason or Live. Never did I sell anybody on the idea of a MOTU/DP system. Here in the northeast it is nothing but a swamp of MBox's. Now I know that MOTU is doing something to survive but its presence is unquestionably diluted these days. I see MOTU hardware in small studios and the power lights indicate that they are on but it is the MBox's that are powered and wired for business and for pleasure.

As an aside, go to http://www.bigbluelounge.com and check out how many primary DP users also use Live, Cubase, Logic and ProTools and then see how many primary users of Live, Cubase, Logic, and ProTools use DP. The difference is astounding! People are always talking about picking up or switching to DP but they rarely ever do. DP has always come across as a "love at first sight" or "hate it and leave it alone" deal. I loved it and I bought it, my friends hated it and bought something different.

It is quite easy for me to assume that MOTU is in good financial shape but that is not my focus, my focus is on MOTU's ability to compete in the explosive market of home recording and not necessarily the professional sector. The amount of money to be made in the hobbyist/beginner market is so high as to be unbelievable. MOTU's campaigns are all mostly aimed at semi-professionals and professionals. Check out Abelton's efficient campaign and you see that they are reeling in serious interest and serious bucks from ALL sectors of the consumer spectrum. Avid/Digidesign/M-Audio are now doing the same. Ableton's lack of a hardware division is nothing but a blessing for that company. There is no R&D cash outlay for that. For MOTU there is and they have to compete with bigger players for cheaper prices on components. And when going up against the likes of Apple and Avid/Digidesign it is clear who are influencing wholesale prices. For this sort of thing one doesn't need any specifics one simply has to take a close look at how things work.

I do agree with James that MOTU has a strength in it's hardware but I also make the observation that more money is indeed needed to keep that division of MOTU viable just as more money is needed to keep MOTU's software division viable and the combination of the two these days might be a tough lock for MOTU to pick.

And then there are the salaries for the people who design the stuff in the first place. Who do you think brings home bigger paychecks? The talent that works for Apple and Avid/Digidesign or the talent that works for MOTU? Who gets the leading edge designers who truly want to do something different? Most likely Ableton.

The advances to DP with regards to film scoring are indeed attractive features -- if you are a film scorer. But those features are not innovative they represent practices that were already being done despite the existence of DP. The conductor track also makes it easy to pump out stellar drum & bass tracks, but DP's MIDI implementation is certainly not even close to being number one in its class, though it is decent.

I never said that the end is nigh for MOTU. MOTU has some choppy waters to navigate relative to the market penetration of the other companies and that is the only point that I've been making.

[billf]

It is quite easy for me to assume that MOTU is in good financial shape but that is not my focus, my focus is on MOTU's ability to compete in the explosive market of home recording and not necessarily the professional sector. The amount of money to be made in the hobbyist/beginner market is so high as to be unbelievable. MOTU's campaigns are all mostly aimed at semi-professionals and professionals.

MOTU appears to be doing quite well (look at all the full page color spreads they have each month on the trade mags). Their products are innovative and cost effective. And just because a few folks on BigBlueLounge seem to love Live proves nothing in terms of MOTU's market.

So why should MOTU have to cater to the consumer crowd?

[Shooshie]

Bill, your avatar "fun with steak" could be called "Digidesign Market Research--determining the maximum price point for a DAW." Tell 'em it's the industry standard, and some people will pay any amount. I think Waves uses that same market research company. Yes [ouch] I'm enjoying my [ouch] WUP steak. Could you [ouch] pass the steak sauce [ouch] please?



Shooshie

[bone.china]

Introducing crappy subpar VIs in its flagship product is not the way to go.

But those are things that are aimed specifically at beginners and first-time buyers. How else are Wayne & Garth going to be able make some noise right out of the box?

All of the new funtionality of DP is aimed at longtime seasoned users rather than beginners and first time buyers.

Wait a minute... isn't that a contradiction? So you're suggesting the "crappy subpar VIs" were intended for longtime seasoned users? The last two sentences I quoted of yours-- which directly followed each other-- don't make sense together.

Trying to lure new buyers with Track Folders is not the way to go either.

How often has it been said around here "I wish MOTU would pay more attention to ergonomics and things like interface and performance tweaks that make life easier for we longtime users?" So MOTU shows us they're responsive to OUR needs, and you've created a context in which to now *complain* about that?

MOTU will be sold in one year or it will be forced to concentrate on either hardware or softtware. It seems nigh on impossible to me that they would be able to stay competitive in the next year without a major influx of cold hard cash.

No offense, but neither of us know the financial details about MOTU. I'm unfamiliar with your credentials and I would give your opinion more weight if perhaps you had prior experience in upper management at a top-tier music hardware/software company. Do you?

This possible scenario does not bode well for the exorcising of stuck MIDI notes, among other things.

Well, I haven't had a single one since version 5.01 or further back... can't remember. Sorry you haven't been as fortunate.

Adding crappy VIs that are not easy to program though would be simplified controls mark the interface would make newbies happy BUT it is nearly universally agreed that the presets for all the included VIs in DP suck! Maybe Shooshie is inspired by crappy presets to make his own -- it would certainly make sense to create beauty out of ugliness but we are talking about noobs here and not seasoned Moog programmers. The noobs are likely to have a first listen, barf and then never look at DP again. Contrast that to all the noobs picking up Logic Express and Logic Pro (at twice the price of DP).

Also, I don't consider the addition of VIs or crappy VIs as an increase of functionality to DP, though it is undeniably a feature. Many of the VIs that are included in Logic were first high quality add-ons to Logic. The sold themselves on their own. Apple bundled them and now they help to sell Logic. MOTU seems to have overlooked this fine point. MOTU has grafted on a group of VIs that do not initially reach the sonic pleasure of Logic's VIs. Now if MOTU had included Mach5, MSI, MX4 and Ethno Instrument into DP then that would have said something far more positive then what they have actually done.

Shooshie,, why don't you share some of your stellar homegrown presets?

Track Folders are cool but as I pointed out I doubt they will attract new buyers. Personally, I'm glad to have the feature.

As for the knowing the particulars of MOTU's financial status, I don't. Still it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know which companies are a bagging big bags of loot. (Enron, notwithstanding.) I have always figured MOTU to be in good financial shape but what I've done is point out possible challenges to the company.

Oh, and I do have an undergradutae degree in business management. Not an MBA but what I've learned and continue to learn serve me well enough. I also read what software developers and hardware manufacturers are saying in the news as relative to the audio and music business. MOTU may not be talking but many others are and there is no reason why MOTU would not be focused on the many of the same issues that their counterparts are.

I have a friend who uses a Unitor and he never has any stuck MIDI notes either, so I guess myself and others are, as you say, plain unlucky.

[bone.china]

So why should MOTU have to cater to the consumer crowd?

So that they will have more to live off of. It's more than coincidence that many other companies are refocusing their efforts on the consumer market. It appears to be a necessity.

MOTU, in my, opinion has always been focused on the consumer market because they made it dirt cheap, compared to Digidesign, to enter into personal music making. They then developed a product in DP that also appealed to ProTools aspirants and film scorers. However, they do seem to have been caught offguard with the advent of Reason and Live and Apple's acquisition of Logic and subsequent introduction of GarageBand.

MOTUs challenge now is to compete in an ever crowded and exciting market place. They seem to be awake now but for awhile they seemed to be curled up asleep by the fireplace up in New Hampshire somewhere. So that now they do have to reacquire the attention of newbies and hobbyists while staying true to their loyalists.

[Shooshie]

Regarding my "stellar homegrown presets," I didn't save any. I just tried out the units, targeted a sound, and tried to see how long it took to get there. It wasn't nearly as difficult as I expected, and the end result was actually very good in each case. I tend to make such sounds on the spot when I need one, but I don't use synths much anymore.

Chrispick has posted some good presets. You might check out the ones he's made. But really, try it yourself. You might be surprised at how far you get once you get really familiar with the controls. Start with a sound in mind. That reduces the time it takes to get somewhere by an exponential amount. Each twist or turn either gets you closer or farther away. Soon you're there.

These aren't fancy or packed with glittery features, but they really are fine sound modules. I don't think they'll win any awards, but they're definitely not "crappy." On the other hand... they just MIGHT win something.

Shooshie

[James Steele]

We can agree to disagree. Basically our problem is I can't accept many of your premises. As you admit, your "evidence" is anectdotal. That's pretty much the bottom line.

As for M-Audio's market share versus MOTU, I don't really know how it breaks down-- do you? If they've built their market share more quickly than MOTU as you assert (not that I accept this), I would submit that MOTU deserves the lion's share of the credit for CREATING the market for cost-effective audio interfaces to start with! Remember something called the 2408? Prior to that Digidesign had no competition and nothing to put downward pressure on their pricing. I remember my ProTools Project system with an 882 interface and how the PT/Digi hardware combo was intentionally limited to drive users to upgrade. MOTU released the 2408 and fired a shot across the bow of Digi and everything changed. I can't prove it and have no knowledge, but I have suspected for years that Digi never forgave MOTU for not leaving control of the hardware segment to them, and that MOTU's difficulty with TDM support might have something to do with Digi's lack of enthusiasm toward helping MOTU in this area. AGAIN, I don't know this to be a fact... it's just a "speculation" again.

As for fighting over the consumer market, I hope MOTU has another strategy in mind. Often when companies try to slug it out and compete on price in a segment chock full of low-cost, low margin gear nobody wins. I suppose Digi could try to undercut MOTU and sustain a loss until MOTU folded, but Digi is publicly held and shareholders don't want to see losses. MOTU is privately held and can do whatever they want.

Personally, I wouldn't bet against MOTU. Numerous times in the past I've seen discussion like this and then MOTU makes some major announcement that shakes everything up again.

Finally, if there is a Mac-based app that is better suited for film composers and more popular with same, do tell. My understanding is that pretty much DP is the #1 app in that category.

[WSVP]

bone.china wrote

Also, I don't consider the addition of VIs or crappy VIs as an increase of functionality to DP, though it is undeniably a feature. Many of the VIs that are included in Logic were first high quality add-ons to Logic. The sold themselves on their own. Apple bundled them and now they help to sell Logic. MOTU seems to have overlooked this fine point. MOTU has grafted on a group of VIs that do not initially reach the sonic pleasure of Logic's VIs. Now if MOTU had included Mach5, MSI, MX4 and Ethno Instrument into DP then that would have said something far more positive then what they have actually done.

While I agree that adding higher quality virtual instruments into DP would add to its value. It would more than likely also add to its cost. Logic Pro is significantly more expensive than DP. I think most of us would rather pay less for the DAW and choose the VI's ourselves.

It is also important to remember that Apple has a sales advantage over MOTU, in that many people will by the Apple product assuming that it will work better with Apple hardware and OS. Microsoft has the same advantage in the Windows world. I don't think that the added VI's do nearly as much as the Apple branding for Logic Pro sales.

[James Steele]

I don't think that the added VI's do nearly as much as the Apple branding for Logic Pro sales.

I agree with this 100%. If Logic was still being developed by a smallish European company I doubt it would be enjoying the same success. First of all, they'd still be dividing their programming efforts among two different platforms and for that matter the Windows version could be taking precedence right now had Apple not purchased them. Also, they attempted to compete in the hardware arena, and although I believe their MIDI interface was decent and utilized the first time-stamping technology, MOTU eventually bested them there. As far as audio interfaces, Emagic never even came close to competing with MOTU.

Far as I can gather, MOTU's key problem is getting DP to be more efficient. I seriously believe that if DP was efficient as Logic (or even perceived to be) David would slay Goliath.

[bone.china]

James you don't have to convince me about the merits of DP. Also, I'm not looking to "agree to disagree". What I'm doing is looking at MOTU's apparent business model relative to other companies in its field.

The evidence is anectodal and it is not an admission on my part. It simply is what is available to consider. And I didn't bet a dollar against MOTU. I bet a dollar that MOTU will need quite a bit of dough to continue to play the game they are playing. The obviously are feeling the pressure to offer something that at least looks like Logic. To play a game of catch up really is not the best position that a company wants to be in. Would MOTU have even bothered developing VIs for DP if Emagic hadn't done so first? Hard to tell. But we know what cosmetic changes DP has undergone to look a little like Logic.

Acquiring MOTU is not an easy option for any company precisely because it is privately held. Still that doesn't mean that MOTU cannot acquire or merge with another company to beef up its strategy and influence.

I don't know what MOTU is going to do but one thing is clear, MOTU needs a whole lot of dough to remain the tough competitor that it has been.

And I am surprised that they are still alive and kicking but that is not the same thing as saying that I thought they would be dead by now.

[James Steele]

I don't know what MOTU is going to do but one thing is clear, MOTU needs a whole lot of dough to remain the tough competitor that it has been

Why? Who says? How do we know they don't have enough money? I guess I just don't see them as getting the pants beat off them as you obviously do. Oh well...

[chrispick]

Not that I know anything, but I doubt MOTU considers DP to be their flagship product anymore. I imagine they focus more on hardware sales. interfaces specifically. Certainly their ad emphasis has been there as of late. You can't get away from UltraLite print ads.

And MOTU already runs co-ops with USB to make all their current ancillary apps.

[billf]

Bill, your avatar "fun with steak" could be called "Digidesign Market Research--determining the maximum price point for a DAW." Tell 'em it's the industry standard, and some people will pay any amount. I think Waves uses that same market research company. Yes [ouch] I'm enjoying my [ouch] WUP steak. Could you [ouch] pass the steak sauce [ouch] please?



Shooshie

LOL. It should probably say "Fun with WUP".

[billf]

So why should MOTU have to cater to the consumer crowd?

So that they will have more to live off of. It's more than coincidence that many other companies are refocusing their efforts on the consumer market. It appears to be a necessity.

MOTU, in my, opinion has always been focused on the consumer market because they made it dirt cheap, compared to Digidesign, to enter into personal music making. They then developed a product in DP that also appealed to ProTools aspirants and film scorers. However, they do seem to have been caught offguard with the advent of Reason and Live and Apple's acquisition of Logic and subsequent introduction of GarageBand.

MOTUs challenge now is to compete in an ever crowded and exciting market place. They seem to be awake now but for awhile they seemed to be curled up asleep by the fireplace up in New Hampshire somewhere. So that now they do have to reacquire the attention of newbies and hobbyists while staying true to their loyalists.

bone, you nor I have the real numbers on MOTU's income statement. But I can tell you that given the advertising that they put out every month in the print trades, they have to be doing well. Marketing budgets like that aren't cheap.

As for their business model, chasing the low end consumer market can be a fools folly. You're talking about the demographic who like Fruity Loops and Band-in-a-Box. It's an apples and oranges argument, with one downside, margins are razor thin when you're selling your flagship app for $49.

BTW. if you want to know what demographic MOTU is catering to, check out the site dpusers.com.

[bone.china]

bone, you nor I have the real numbers on MOTU's income statement. But I can tell you that given the advertising that they put out every month in the print trades, they have to be doing well. Marketing budgets like that aren't cheap.

As for their business model, chasing the low end consumer market can be a fools folly. You're talking about the demographic who like Fruity Loops and Band-in-a-Box. It's an apples and oranges argument, with one downside, margins are razor thin when you're selling your flagship app for $49.

BTW. if you want to know what demographic MOTU is catering to, check out the site dpusers.com.

James, Shooshie, myself and others have covered all of this already.

OT: The new Boxcutter album Oneiric is completely off the chain! Seriously good stuff.