Have I discovered a huge flaw in DP5?

[blazingrythm]

Hell, I called twice last week and no one answered the phone at MOTU tech support.

The last time I called they told me to merge all soundbites before bouncing to disk.

It worked back then...

But, I tried that the other day and it still had audio drop outs.

There are other problems too but this one really pisses me off.

[pcm]

I don't want to point the finger at anyone in tech support particularly.
I would just like to see them in a position to come up with cool tips and tricks with DP rather than having to figure out a work around for bugs and other inconsistancies.

But, I really hope they pass these complaints on to the proper personel so that something can actually be done about it.

I always get through, I just hit redial until I do. But when I do get through, the most common scenario is that I report an issue that not only I am having, but one that I have seen others here report also. The techs always say they have never heard of it. A month or two or three later when I call with something else, I also mention all the previous issues. They still haven't heard of it. I find this disheartening.

[pcm]

Well, since you're doing all of this MOTU name dropping I was wondering if anyone knows what ever happened to Mark Airey? That guy was one of the nicest, most informative guys I've ever talked to at MOTU. I loved reading his posts from the MOTU-Mac list.

Here's my favorite post from him (when was the last time we saw something like THIS from MOTU? Answer: this post...):


A list of additions, features, and improvements follow below... in NO
particular order:

- Fixed a crash bug involving 24 bit recording and certain buffer sizes
- Fixed "popping" when starting playback after changed solo state
- Fixed processor usage meter flickering
- Fixed circular connection detection when sends are involved (fixes crash
bug with sends)
- Pin edge editing to zero
- Fixed a drawing glitch when audio Graphic Editor is hanging off the screen
- Fixed a bug with switching active data types via insert (caused a problem
with snapshots)
- Fixed a problem where you would sometimes make a range selection when you
were trying to make an object selection (or the other way around)
- Fixed crash bug when remaping to send volume in Change Continuous Data
- Fixed problems with tracks default patches when recording in overdub mode
and cycling
- Fixed a bug with MIDI remotes (automation would not play after using an
attached control)
- Fixed a bug with record button in mixing board not becoming active after
changing input via popup menu
- Fixed a problem with the Emphasis label in one of the continuous data
windows
- Fixed a crash bug when changing play states on record enabled tracks with
"mute frees system resources" enabled
- Fixed a bug that would cause sound bites to stop playing when long
automation record passes were underway
- Fixed a bug in the way window track matching works with window sets
- Reassigning ins and out while waiting for external sync used to cause the
audio driver to start playback. Not anymore
- Fixed a couple bugs involving interactions between the pause and record
buttons
- Fixed a drawing glitch with loops in the drum editor
- Made Set Soundbite Tempo work for multiple soundbite selections
- Fixed crash bug doing an audio region operation to a soundbite selection
with soundbites whose start sample is past end of file
- Changed mono mode attenuation under Mas from 2.5 dB to 6 dB
- Support for Mezzo v3.7. (Mezzo can find all the audio files that belong
to a session)
- Fixed a bug when hiding and showing level meters in the mixing board
- Fixed a bug when copying to a clipping window
- Fixed a bug with effect stairstep data and the spline tool in the Audio
Graphic Editor
- Fixed an update bug and a scrolling bug in the drum editor
- Fixed the problem of not being able to open Audio Desk documents without
selecting "Show All Readable Documents" first
- Fixed an old bug in the MIDI Monitor window that would crash if you
dragged the window when there were no devices
- The drum pattern list is now updated after you use Load to import new
patterns
- Fixed a bug where the sample system would squawk about disconnected
samplers
- Fixed a bug with the drum editor note caches that could lead to
unexpectedly erased notes
- Fixed a longstanding bug where the barline connecting the treble and bass
clefs of a 2-staff track would sometimes draw with a one-pixel offset to the
right if Font Smoothing is turned on in the Appearance Mgr Control Panel
- Fixed a bug exposed by odd meter changes which could yield labels like
2|7|420 instead of 3|1
- Fixed mouse tracking problem that showed up when the system was heavily
loaded
- Fixed crash bugs involving very short playback loops
- Fixed a bug in the drum editor when painting polyrhythms with the pattern
brush
- Fixed a bug entering meas/beat/tick times and beat/tick durations in the
scale time when the data display format is 3840 ticks/quarter note
- Fixed a bug in the drum editor when getting info about FMS "all-cables"
devices
- Chunk List window now scrolls to show the play chunk whenever a new play
chunk is selected
- Fixed crashing bug writing markers when saving as Composer
- Fixed step recording in the QuickScribe window
- Fixed a bug that in 2.7 will not redraw events in background layers of the
audio GE when the selection changes
- Fixed a problem with "selected time range" style snapshots
- Fixed a crash bug involving undoing fade operations
- Fixed a DAE 5.0 bug that was causing effect presets to not restore on file
open
- Fixed a bug that would cause Polar's recording to get out of sync with DP
after glitching
- Fixed a graphics glitch after launching DAE
- Changed DAE unloading behavior. Now, when you switch to MIDI Only or MOTU
Audio System from DAE, the DAE driver is killed but DP stays connected to
the running DAE app. This prevents crashes resulting from trying to unload
and reload DAE without quitting and re-launching DP
- Removed the "Buffer Size" command from the DAE configuration menu. It
relied on being able to unloaded reload DAE, and would crash if copy
protected plug-ins, most notably D-Verb, were installed
- Fixed a crash bug when opening files displaying the audio monitor window
that cause reconfiguration of the sample format
- Fixed continuous data insertion with grid snap in Audio Graphic Editor
- Fixed loop previewing in sound bite editor
- Fixed numbering of virtual inputs (fixes problems with naming inputs in
the Audio Names window)
Sincerely,
Mark Airey

Mark of the Unicorn
1280 Mass Ave.
Cambridge, MA 02138

[bone.china]

Have you guys ever considered that MOTU's tech support is outsourced to a third party just like a lot of other companies. It's cheaper for one thing. Apple, Dell and many others do not directly take the large majority of their customer assistance/tech support calls. If MOTU does outsource then that would explain the drop in quality of service that Shooshie has talked about.

Still, though, when I consider that all those developers over at KVRaudio are dealing directly with their customers it makes me wonder why QA seems to become less of a priority as a company grows in size. To me it would seem that it would become an even a higher priority.

I have bet many dollars in my life but I would bet yet another one that MOTU sells to some bigger company over the next year -- at least a merger is necessary. Ableton's Live 6 is a major threat to every audio/MIDI sequencing platform on the planet! There's no doubt that it is going to secure an even larger market share among new and old users. This past week Sibelius has sold out to Avid/Digidesign which puts them in direct head to head combat with Apple's Logic, Final Cut Pro, etc. and MOTU.

It's hot out there folks and I don't know where it's all headed but you can bet that MOTU has a lot of ground to cover for such a small outfit. MOTU is working it's niche to film scorers with DP but all the other companies are focusing in on that, too. In Live 6 one will be able to work to picture for the first time. It's not up to DP standards but it's coming in at least on par with Logic. That's serious.

What I'm saying is that MOTU is feeling the pressure to grow and innovate. We all know that DP has since become Logic-like with the addition of it's own VIs. MOTU needs big money to continue being competitive. It is at a disadvantage to Ableton and other companies like Ableton because it also produces hardware. MOTU is also at a disadvantage to all of the other bigger companies because it's cash flow is severely limited when compared to bigger boys. DP doesn't have the flashy image like many of the other software-only companies do. Even ProTools has managed to become hip by building a super tight and strong image with the MBox combined with Propellerhead's Reason. MOTU has so many things going against it that it's a wonder they are still alive and kicking. Introducing crappy subpar VIs in its flagship product is not the way to go. All of the new funtionality of DP is aimed at longtime seasoned users rather than beginners and first time buyers. MOTU needs the bucks to pull out all the stops. And nearly every "new" thing in DP lately has been a result of trying to keep up with the other platforms. I haven't seen anything innovative in DP since I started using it at version 2.7 -- there's always something being added that I think of as being cool but I already love the program. Trying to lure new buyers with Track Folders is not the way to go either. MOTU will be sold in one year or it will be forced to concentrate on either hardware or softtware. It seems nigh on impossible to me that they would be able to stay competitive in the next year without a major influx of cold hard cash.

This possible scenario does not bode well for the exorcising of stuck MIDI notes, among other things.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

This possible scenario does not bode well for the exorcising of stuck MIDI notes, among other things.

Cross referenceing to this thread for you... Don't know about the out sourcing, but I've all but given up on MOTU tech support for and real help with a problem. This site is my only tech support option.

But you might find this thread interesting...

http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtop ... 8992#88997

[bone.china]

This possible scenario does not bode well for the exorcising of stuck MIDI notes, among other things.

Cross referenceing to this thread for you... Don't know about the out sourcing, but I've all but given up on MOTU tech support for and real help with a problem. This site is my only tech support option.

But you might find this thread interesting...

http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtop ... 8992#88997

Thanks! It seems many are reading the winds in the same way. I heard about the Sibelius acquisition over at CreateDigitalMusic.com and considering the latest update 5.1 for DP my brain just went into overdrive wondering about the meaning of it all. Yeah, man, you got that right about the CEOs. No doubt about that.

[Shooshie]

I don't really agree about the sale of MOTU being a certainty. Furthermore, I'm not so sure that MOTU is the "little guy" that we all talk about. More like the "frugal guy." You will see MOTU hardware in nearly every studio in the country, both big and little, and you'll find it in probably 4 out of 5 home studios. MOTU got in early on the hardware game, and for years was THE go-to company for great hardware at a reasonable price. It surprised me to walk into some of the most tricked-out studios in the country and to find a MOTU box (or several) in every rack. Ask, and you would also find that most studios have DP; they just don't talk about it.

The magazines still treat DP as one of the two or three heavies in the DAW circles, and then there's that fact that film and video producers rely on DP heavily. That's not a mere niche in the market. Final Cut Pro and Soundtrack Pro have probably cut into DP's market more than Logic or PT. But if you want to compose music, not just assemble it from loops, DP is still the way to go.

I think the predictions of MOTU's demise are a lot like the 1990s predictions of Apple's demise: premature. With version 5.1, I think we're seeing some of the old MOTU back in the saddle. Things are getting better. Furthermore, if they were that cash strapped, they certainly could have charged another $149 (or even $49) for the UB update, as did most other companies. Perhaps that was what 5.0 was supposed to be, and we already paid for it.

As for the VIs included with 5.0, I think they are quite fitting for MOTU. First of all, they're not bad instruments. Those who say they are must have no capacity for working with synths, because I was able to get what I wanted out of them quite easily. The controls are brilliantly simplified, but require a good understanding of synthesis to get the most out of. I don't expect them to compete with Mach Five, MSI, MX4, or any of the top-line VIs out there. In fact, they fill a niche which formerly required either rack gear or some off-brand VI that might not play well with DP. Maybe Logic has some cooler VIs. But then you have to use Logic, which has its strengths, for sure, but it just isn't DP.

To sum up, MOTU appears to be healthy to me. It's always been a well-run company--at least from outward appearances. Like any company, I'm sure that former employees tend to have stories to tell, but those who stay for the long term seem quite happy with it. Or at least quite loyal to it. That says a lot for a company. When you see some of those names mentioned above out looking for a job, then you might want to try some of those demos for other DAWs, but I think we're in very good shape at the moment, and things are only getting better. This switch to Intel is going much more smoothly than I expected. I honestly expected this to be another one of those 18 month guessing games after the original deadline. Turns out they only missed the original deadline by what... 33 days? Tell that to Microsoft.

Judge a company by its employees. It won't take long until you realize that MOTU is an exceptional company. Always has been. I think there's good reason why they set it up in the shadow of MIT and Harvard. If it were in Omaha, we wouldn't be having this conversation, because we'd be using Logic.

Shooshie

[Shooshie]

More thoughts:

Where do we stand now? I think this much is clear:

1) version 5.1 marks the last optimization for PPC chips. It's a good move, and it's going to make a lot of users happy until they can make the switch to Intel, giving us an extra year or so to do it. I'm feeling less of a rush to run out and buy a new Mac, and when I finally do, we'll be in 2nd generation or 3rd generation Intels.
2) This represents the first try at IntelMacs, so things are about where things were with DP 4.0 three years ago. It's only going to move up from here
3) Most likely the only company that has the Intel thing nailed down at this point is Apple in Logic, so although it may appear that Logic pulls out into the lead, give it a while and the other DAWs will catch up. DP will move at its well-known slow pace as MOTU plays a conservative game. A bad move WOULD hurt the company at this point (or any other company).
4) Now that we've cleared the major hurdles that will shake out smaller companies, namely the switches to OSX, and then to Intel, the NeXTStep transition is complete. These aren't your Daddy's old Macs anymore. These are bonafide UNIX machines. Now MOTU is free to focus on features, optimization, bug fixes, and exploring new territory like render farms. We can all breathe a collective sigh of relief as the future comes barrelling at us in high gear.
5) The one final restraint will be the cutting off of legacy machines, meaning the PPC, the last link to the old Macs. That won't happen for at least three years, and when it does, development will probably increase in speed and depth somewhat.

But I guarantee you that in five years there will be someone who comes here and asks questions about DP 2.7 in System 8, and if it's worth it to upgrade to OS9 on a Mac 8600. That's the thing about Apple and MOTU; this stuff just keeps on going. I'm still opening files in DP that are dated 1985. I'm still opening files in other Mac apps that are dated 1984!

So, what I'm saying is that MOTU has survived and thrived as the Mac has changed radically from its roots:

••• from 68000 to PPC
••• from Classic Mac to OS X (UNIX), and all the transitional OS's in between
••• from single to dual processors
••• from Motorola/IBM to Intel
••• from sequencer to audio platform
••• from rack gear to VIs

and what we're running now is amazingly changed from its humble beginnings. The very fact that it has survived means the company is strong, and the fact that the last of these transitions is done makes it possible to focus on optimization, features, and growth. This is not the time that anyone wants to throw in the towel. This is the most exciting time of all. If the other companies are seen leveraging their products by buying other companies to bolster their sagging weaknesses, that's a sign that THEY are feeling the pressure from MOTU, not vice-versa.

Shooshie

[sdfalk]

More thoughts:

Where do we stand now? I think this much is clear:

1) version 5.1 marks the last optimization for PPC chips. It's a good move, and it's going to make a lot of users happy until they can make the switch to Intel, giving us an extra year or so to do it. I'm feeling less of a rush to run out and buy a new Mac, and when I finally do, we'll be in 2nd generation or 3rd generation Intels.
2) This represents the first try at IntelMacs, so things are about where things were with DP 4.0 three years ago. It's only going to move up from here
3) Most likely the only company that has the Intel thing nailed down at this point is Apple in Logic, so although it may appear that Logic pulls out into the lead, give it a while and the other DAWs will catch up. DP will move at its well-known slow pace as MOTU plays a conservative game. A bad move WOULD hurt the company at this point (or any other company).
4) Now that we've cleared the major hurdles that will shake out smaller companies, namely the switches to OSX, and then to Intel, the NeXTStep transition is complete. These aren't your Daddy's old Macs anymore. These are bonafide UNIX machines. Now MOTU is free to focus on features, optimization, bug fixes, and exploring new territory like render farms. We can all breathe a collective sigh of relief as the future comes barrelling at us in high gear.
5) The one final restraint will be the cutting off of legacy machines, meaning the PPC, the last link to the old Macs. That won't happen for at least three years, and when it does, development will probably increase in speed and depth somewhat.

But I guarantee you that in five years there will be someone who comes here and asks questions about DP 2.7 in System 8, and if it's worth it to upgrade to OS9 on a Mac IIsi. That's the thing about Apple and MOTU; this stuff just keeps on going. I'm still opening files in DP that are dated 1985. I'm still opening files in other Mac apps that are dated 1984!

So, what I'm saying is that MOTU has survived and thrived as the Mac has changed radically from its roots:

••• from 68000 to PPC
••• from Classic Mac to OS X (UNIX), and all the transitional OS's in between
••• from single to dual processors
••• from Motorola/IBM to Intel
••• from sequencer to audio platform
••• from rack gear to VIs

and what we're running now is amazingly changed from its humble beginnings. The very fact that it has survived means the company is strong, and the fact that the last of these transitions is done makes it possible to focus on optimization, features, and growth. This is not the time that anyone wants to throw in the towel. This is the most exciting time of all. If the other companies are seen leveraging their products by buying other companies to bolster their sagging weaknesses, that's a sign that THEY are feeling the pressure from MOTU, not vice-versa.

Shooshie

1:
How is it the last optimization for PPC chips?

[James Steele]

I have bet many dollars in my life but I would bet yet another one that MOTU sells to some bigger company over the next year -- at least a merger is necessary.

I'll take that bet... would you care to make it $100? Let's go.

It is at a disadvantage to Ableton and other companies like Ableton because it also produces hardware.

Personally, I see this as the exact opposite. I'd wager quite honestly that hardware is probably more profitable for MOTU than software. How does MOTU get a piece of that Windows pie without watering down development efforts and porting DP to Windows? Sell oodles of audio interfaces to both Mac and PC users.

MOTU is also at a disadvantage to all of the other bigger companies because it's cash flow is severely limited when compared to bigger boys.

I have no idea what MOTU's cash flow is. Do you? MOTU is privately held so not a lot of people are privy to that information. I don't know what Digi's financial situation is like, but supposedly after the Avid/Digi merger, the tail was wagging the dog as Avid's profits were taking a beating as their monopoloy in non-linear video editing has been challenged.

DP doesn't have the flashy image like many of the other software-only companies do.

This is true. Every year at NAMM, Logic has some flashy stuff going on and they got some guy with an English accent who wears black and is hipness incarnate giving the demo. In the end, however, if you sit down and try and quickly record something in Logic it's an unqualified bitch. Oh yeah, and Logic is ugly. If MOTU ever manages some sort of shared processing, I'd buy 2 or 3 Macs just so I didn't have to look at Logic. Just my opinion. Perhaps with the new MacPros coming, we'll get a shot in the arm performance wise. Maybe hardware improvements will save the slower code yet again?

Even ProTools has managed to become hip by building a super tight and strong image with the MBox combined with Propellerhead's Reason.

A multitude of 19-year-old Squier strat wielding denizens of Guitar Center rejoice. Wayne and Garth, if they were still "sequeling" today would be singing "Party time... excellent..." into mBox/PT LE.

MOTU has so many things going against it that it's a wonder they are still alive and kicking.

Uhh... I respectfully disagree. Nothing else there.

Introducing crappy subpar VIs in its flagship product is not the way to go.

But those are things that are aimed specifically at beginners and first-time buyers. How else are Wayne & Garth going to be able make some noise right out of the box?

All of the new funtionality of DP is aimed at longtime seasoned users rather than beginners and first time buyers.

Wait a minute... isn't that a contradiction? So you're suggesting the "crappy subpar VIs" were intended for longtime seasoned users? The last two sentences I quoted of yours-- which directly followed each other-- don't make sense together.

MOTU needs the bucks to pull out all the stops. And nearly every "new" thing in DP lately has been a result of trying to keep up with the other platforms. I haven't seen anything innovative in DP since I started using it at version 2.7...

You obviously didn't see the demo of the newest film-scoring related features at NAMM? Other platforms are going to have to keep up with DP in that area.

Trying to lure new buyers with Track Folders is not the way to go either.

How often has it been said around here "I wish MOTU would pay more attention to ergonomics and things like interface and performance tweaks that make life easier for we longtime users?" So MOTU shows us they're responsive to OUR needs, and you've created a context in which to now *complain* about that?

MOTU will be sold in one year or it will be forced to concentrate on either hardware or softtware. It seems nigh on impossible to me that they would be able to stay competitive in the next year without a major influx of cold hard cash.

No offense, but neither of us know the financial details about MOTU. I'm unfamiliar with your credentials and I would give your opinion more weight if perhaps you had prior experience in upper management at a top-tier music hardware/software company. Do you?

This possible scenario does not bode well for the exorcising of stuck MIDI notes, among other things.

Well, I haven't had a single one since version 5.01 or further back... can't remember. Sorry you haven't been as fortunate.

[Shooshie]

And one last observation:

When DP begins running on multiple computers, each with multiple processors, all networked together, then the last stronghold of Pro Tools will be smashed. What advantage will there be in having external processors from Digidesign costing far more than entire computers from Apple when one can chain together a series of Mac Minis and get equal results? Pro Tools started feeling the heat from DP when the dual G4s made 100 channels of audio possible for an absurdly small amount of cash outlay by comparison. It's funny that Digi is having to position itself to take advantage of its "lite" version in order to compete with DP. Why buy $30,000 of hardware and software to do what DP does for under $1000 on the same Mac?

I doubt that DP will ever unseat Pro Tools from its lofty position as the "industry standard," but it's interesting to me that Digi seems to be changing that standard to resemble DP far more than the reverse. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

Shooshie

[Shooshie]

1:
How is it the last optimization for PPC chips?

Speculation on my part. By "optimization," I mean "speed bump." We've waited for quite a few versions for a real speed bump, and it has inched up gradually since 2003 when DP 4.0 came out. DP 5.1 gives us a pretty good jump in speed/efficiency on the PPC processors, while those using Intel are telling us that it's not so fast. It looks to me as though they devoted this round to finishing off that speed optimization for PPC chips. But from here, what would you focus on? Making the legacy machines work better or making the new machines fly? If they can do both with the same code, then I'm happily wrong about that prediction, but if they have to choose one and optimize for it, then which do you think they'll choose? I know what I'd do. I'd go for the future, not the past.

Shooshie

[Shooshie]

Even ProTools has managed to become hip by building a super tight and strong image with the MBox combined with Propellerhead's Reason.

A multitude of 19-year-old Squier strat wielding denizens of Guitar Center rejoice. Wayne and Garth, if they were still "sequeling" today would be singing "Party time... excellent..." into mBox/PT LE.

LOL! Thanks for saying in a couple of lines what I couldn't manage in three or four posts! And making me laugh, to boot! You nailed it down. The rest of your post was on target, too. Good rebuttal, James.


Shooshie

[James Steele]

Even ProTools has managed to become hip by building a super tight and strong image with the MBox combined with Propellerhead's Reason.

A multitude of 19-year-old Squier strat wielding denizens of Guitar Center rejoice. Wayne and Garth, if they were still "sequeling" today would be singing "Party time... excellent..." into mBox/PT LE.

LOL! Thanks for saying in a couple of lines what I couldn't manage in three or four posts! And making me laugh, to boot! You nailed it down. The rest of your post was on target, too. Good rebuttal, James.


Shooshie

Thanks. BTW, I got a chuckle when you mentioned all the folks who were predicting the demise of Apple. I remember when it was downright fashionable. I once attended a cocktail party and that was the big topic and the convention wisdom of the day was Apple couldn't pull it out. A woman there (who had a financial/investing show on a small cable channel) was holding court, talking matter-of-factly about how there was simply no way Apple would survive. I couldn't help myself and looked directly at her and interjected "My-- what an original and imaginative point of view. Really going out on a limb there, huh?" or something similarly sarcastic. I'd dearly love to cross paths with her today and ask what happened?

Similarly when the tech stocks crashed and Apple dropped, I bought a paltry number of shares (drat!) at $20/share. Unfortunately I sold too early, but I have a friend who bought 100 at $14 on a whim at my recommendation. She's pretty happy about that now. In fairness... none of us saw the iPod coming, all I knew is that Apple was severely undervalued and had billions in cash. Puhleease... they were not Yahoo for goodness sake.

Lastly I'm reminded of a wonderful quote that seems applicable. I can't remember it exactly but to paraphrase it talks about "cynicism too often passing for intelligence."

[WSVP]

Pro Tools started feeling the heat from DP when the dual G4s made 100 channels of audio possible for an absurdly small amount of cash outlay by comparison. It's funny that Digi is having to position itself to take advantage of its "lite" version in order to compete with DP. Why buy $30,000 of hardware and software to do what DP does for under $1000 on the same Mac?

This is a good point Shooshie

Companies like SSL, NEVE, Studer, Otari and Avid/Digidesign have built a business around providing a high end product at a "very high" price to serve "few" people. Just like what happened in the desktop publishing world the developers who want to survive in the DAW world will have to make a high end product at an "affordable" price to serve "many" people.

Making this transition is not always as easy as it seems. People tend to hold on to the value they attach to things. Older people hate paying todays prices for things they remember paying a fraction of the cost for decades ago. The same is true in reverse, Imagine what it will be like for a company to conceive of selling something for $900 that they were selling for $200,000 5 years ago. Even though logistically it can be done, most companies don't make this transition well.